Maps
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RE: Maps - Perce Neige
>For Canadian Routebook Rallies (PN), are maps allowed ?
>
>Does anybody have maps of the PN stages from past years ?
Ole:
The organizers will publish maps of the rally route on the Perce-Neige website about two weeks prior to the rally.
The maps are suitable for planning purposes but are not suitable for other purposes (such as reading bends).
I have never seen good topographic maps of the area where the stages are located (except for the two short stages near Maniwaki on public roads). I have seen the roads on snowmobile maps but they are not detailed enough.
Even if you had very detailed maps of the stages, it is unlikely that they would be of value, as the road in the wintertime does not necessarily follow the map, because the winter road goes where ever the snow plow driver makes it go.
You will have to rely on the route book for bad corners and crests/jumps. Sometimes the route book is not totally accurate, if the stage has been plowed the night before the rally.
Christian Edstrom seemed to have no problems last year doing the rally blind. Perhaps, you should contact him.
At the rally, you can talk to any of the top co-drivers who will be able to provide you with general descriptions of the nature of each stage.
Don't worry, the snow banks will be high. Just don't hit them nose first.
Doug Woods
>For Canadian Routebook Rallies (PN), are maps allowed ?
>
>Does anybody have maps of the PN stages from past years ?
Ole:
The organizers will publish maps of the rally route on the Perce-Neige website about two weeks prior to the rally.
The maps are suitable for planning purposes but are not suitable for other purposes (such as reading bends).
I have never seen good topographic maps of the area where the stages are located (except for the two short stages near Maniwaki on public roads). I have seen the roads on snowmobile maps but they are not detailed enough.
Even if you had very detailed maps of the stages, it is unlikely that they would be of value, as the road in the wintertime does not necessarily follow the map, because the winter road goes where ever the snow plow driver makes it go.
You will have to rely on the route book for bad corners and crests/jumps. Sometimes the route book is not totally accurate, if the stage has been plowed the night before the rally.
Christian Edstrom seemed to have no problems last year doing the rally blind. Perhaps, you should contact him.
At the rally, you can talk to any of the top co-drivers who will be able to provide you with general descriptions of the nature of each stage.
Don't worry, the snow banks will be high. Just don't hit them nose first.
Doug Woods
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232 Posts
RE: Maps - Perce Neige
Ole,
Last year at Perce Neige, I got the impression that at least two people prepared the route book. Some stages were reasonably well documented, while others had what seemed to be large information gaps.
For me this event was complicated as our odo quit just before the start of the rally. I had brought along a small Magellan hand held GPS unit in my normal bag of equipment, so I used that instead. The odometer display was quite small for reading under stage rally conditions and it did not measure the route as accurately as I would have preferred, especially for the long night stages.
By the way, I did find the GPS unit useful for events like Targa Newfoundland and the Nevada Open Road Challenge in which we had speed limits. By using the GPS mounted on the dash in front of me it gave me the vehicle speed which I was then able to relay to the driver so he could keep his eyes on the road. The rally computer was displaying distance and timing information for my purposes.
Steve McKelvie
Ole,
Last year at Perce Neige, I got the impression that at least two people prepared the route book. Some stages were reasonably well documented, while others had what seemed to be large information gaps.
For me this event was complicated as our odo quit just before the start of the rally. I had brought along a small Magellan hand held GPS unit in my normal bag of equipment, so I used that instead. The odometer display was quite small for reading under stage rally conditions and it did not measure the route as accurately as I would have preferred, especially for the long night stages.
By the way, I did find the GPS unit useful for events like Targa Newfoundland and the Nevada Open Road Challenge in which we had speed limits. By using the GPS mounted on the dash in front of me it gave me the vehicle speed which I was then able to relay to the driver so he could keep his eyes on the road. The rally computer was displaying distance and timing information for my purposes.
Steve McKelvie
Joined
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768 Posts
RE: Maps - Perce Neige
I've already e-mailed the organizers and CARS reps...
...no reply ....
Does anyone KNOW if it is legal to use maps at PN ?
I'd like to run maps + routebook if I can get an
idea of the general location of the stages, soon
I've done it once before ... it is a little bit of work
to prepare, but it does provide much more info than the routebook.
Again, if anyone has maps showing the general location
of the PN stages from previous years, please let me know
as soon as you can (so that I can order my maps right away).
1:50,000 scale maps appear to be readily available for most
of Quebec:
http://maps.nrcan.gc.ca/search/31e8.html
How accurate they are, I won't know till I can compare
the previous stages to the actual maps ...
Thank You, Thank You, Thank You
Ole
I've already e-mailed the organizers and CARS reps...
...no reply ....
Does anyone KNOW if it is legal to use maps at PN ?
I'd like to run maps + routebook if I can get an
idea of the general location of the stages, soon
I've done it once before ... it is a little bit of work
to prepare, but it does provide much more info than the routebook.
Again, if anyone has maps showing the general location
of the PN stages from previous years, please let me know
as soon as you can (so that I can order my maps right away).
1:50,000 scale maps appear to be readily available for most
of Quebec:
http://maps.nrcan.gc.ca/search/31e8.html
How accurate they are, I won't know till I can compare
the previous stages to the actual maps ...
Thank You, Thank You, Thank You
Ole
Joined
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2,144 Posts
The CARS rulebook is (at least as near as I can tell) silent on the issue of whether maps are allowed. In my mind, that probably means they're ok, but I wouldn't use them unless the following two conditions were met:
1. I was reasonably sure I wasn't going to get protested.
2. I was reasonably sure that the competition would be close enough to warrant the additional information.
As of right now, I'd question #1, and it seems generally that the more #2 is true, the less #1 is... And as an aside, I've found 1:50k maps pretty useless for navigation. 1:25k maps are really required. And I've no idea how accurate those maps are. So all in all, I'd probably elect to run this one blind.
All that said, if you want, I can dig out the 2004 PN routebook and fax you the map. Let me know.
- Christian
PS: Ole, are you running CRNC @ 100AW? It is supposed to be blind this year, but I have 1:24k Topos of the whole area (20+ maps), uncut and unmarked. Yours for the price of postage (from 91321) + 5 free beers, redeemable at any RA event during 2005.
Bjorn Christian Edstrom
www.christianedstrom.com
1. I was reasonably sure I wasn't going to get protested.
2. I was reasonably sure that the competition would be close enough to warrant the additional information.
As of right now, I'd question #1, and it seems generally that the more #2 is true, the less #1 is... And as an aside, I've found 1:50k maps pretty useless for navigation. 1:25k maps are really required. And I've no idea how accurate those maps are. So all in all, I'd probably elect to run this one blind.
All that said, if you want, I can dig out the 2004 PN routebook and fax you the map. Let me know.
- Christian
PS: Ole, are you running CRNC @ 100AW? It is supposed to be blind this year, but I have 1:24k Topos of the whole area (20+ maps), uncut and unmarked. Yours for the price of postage (from 91321) + 5 free beers, redeemable at any RA event during 2005.
Bjorn Christian Edstrom
www.christianedstrom.com
Joined
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2,472 Posts
RE: Maps - Perce Neige
>I've already e-mailed the organizers and CARS reps...
>...no reply ....
>Does anyone KNOW if it is legal to use maps at PN ?
I think they are actually illegal, but I don't have my CARS rulebook handy to check the actual rules.
I am not sure how good the maps of that area are anyway. The 1:50000 maps tend to be of variable accuracy for forest roads. I have seen some stages from other rallies (Tall Pines, Swift Rapids) where all the corners could be read off the map, but there are others where the road and the map bear no relation to each other.
>I'd like to run maps + routebook if I can get an
>idea of the general location of the stages, soon
>
>I've done it once before ... it is a little bit of work
>to prepare, but it does provide much more info than the
>routebook.
>
>Again, if anyone has maps showing the general location
>of the PN stages from previous years, please let me know
>as soon as you can (so that I can order my maps right away).
>
>1:50,000 scale maps appear to be readily available for most
>of Quebec:
The main forest stages are mostly to the west and southwest of Maniwaki.
As pointed out, the actual path the road takes does depend on how it was plowed - corners may appear and disappear due to the plowing. On some roads, the edge of the plowed area may actually be ditch (known as overplow), and can suck the car in.
Adrian
>I've already e-mailed the organizers and CARS reps...
>...no reply ....
>Does anyone KNOW if it is legal to use maps at PN ?
I think they are actually illegal, but I don't have my CARS rulebook handy to check the actual rules.
I am not sure how good the maps of that area are anyway. The 1:50000 maps tend to be of variable accuracy for forest roads. I have seen some stages from other rallies (Tall Pines, Swift Rapids) where all the corners could be read off the map, but there are others where the road and the map bear no relation to each other.
>I'd like to run maps + routebook if I can get an
>idea of the general location of the stages, soon
>
>I've done it once before ... it is a little bit of work
>to prepare, but it does provide much more info than the
>routebook.
>
>Again, if anyone has maps showing the general location
>of the PN stages from previous years, please let me know
>as soon as you can (so that I can order my maps right away).
>
>1:50,000 scale maps appear to be readily available for most
>of Quebec:
The main forest stages are mostly to the west and southwest of Maniwaki.
As pointed out, the actual path the road takes does depend on how it was plowed - corners may appear and disappear due to the plowing. On some roads, the edge of the plowed area may actually be ditch (known as overplow), and can suck the car in.
Adrian
Joined
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2,144 Posts
RE: Maps - Perce Neige
>I think they are actually illegal, but I don't have my CARS
>rulebook handy to check the actual rules.
Re-reading the rulebook, I come to the same conclusion Adrian does. The rules clearly prohibit maps. NRR VI.H states, in part,
"Possession of pace notes [...] is prohibited. Pace notes are defined as any form of additional descriptive notes or any other information depicting the rally route which is not provided by the route book or by the organizer-supplied notes." (emphasis mine)
I read "any other information depicting the rally route" as a map. Sorry, Ole.
- Christian
Bjorn Christian Edstrom
www.christianedstrom.com
>I think they are actually illegal, but I don't have my CARS
>rulebook handy to check the actual rules.
Re-reading the rulebook, I come to the same conclusion Adrian does. The rules clearly prohibit maps. NRR VI.H states, in part,
"Possession of pace notes [...] is prohibited. Pace notes are defined as any form of additional descriptive notes or any other information depicting the rally route which is not provided by the route book or by the organizer-supplied notes." (emphasis mine)
I read "any other information depicting the rally route" as a map. Sorry, Ole.
- Christian
Bjorn Christian Edstrom
www.christianedstrom.com
Joined
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2,472 Posts
RE: Maps - Perce Neige
For reference, sheets 31K01, 31K02, 31K07, 31K08 probably cover the majority of the route.
Adrian
For reference, sheets 31K01, 31K02, 31K07, 31K08 probably cover the majority of the route.
Adrian
Joined
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730 Posts
NRR VI.H.2: "Posession of pace notes made prior to the event is prohibited. Pace notes are defined as any form of additional descriptive notes or any other information depicting the rally route which is not provided by the route book or by the organizer-supplied notes. ..."
Maps that weren't provided by the organizer might well be seen to fall under "other information depicting the rally route", and hence be prohibited, though I'm not aware of this ever having been tested.
Maps that weren't provided by the organizer might well be seen to fall under "other information depicting the rally route", and hence be prohibited, though I'm not aware of this ever having been tested.
Joined
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768 Posts
>NRR VI.H.2: "Posession of pace notes made prior to the event
>is prohibited. Pace notes are defined as any form of
>additional descriptive notes or any other information
>depicting the rally route which is not provided by the route
>book or by the organizer-supplied notes. ..."
>
>Maps that weren't provided by the organizer might well be seen
>to fall under "other information depicting the rally route",
>and hence be prohibited, though I'm not aware of this ever
>having been tested.
Thank you all !
:-( ... ah well .... that's why I contacted the Organizers and CARS . .
.. . . . hopefully they'll get back to me soon ...
>is prohibited. Pace notes are defined as any form of
>additional descriptive notes or any other information
>depicting the rally route which is not provided by the route
>book or by the organizer-supplied notes. ..."
>
>Maps that weren't provided by the organizer might well be seen
>to fall under "other information depicting the rally route",
>and hence be prohibited, though I'm not aware of this ever
>having been tested.
Thank you all !
:-( ... ah well .... that's why I contacted the Organizers and CARS . .
.. . . . hopefully they'll get back to me soon ...
RE: Maps - Perce Neige
Ole,
Have a look around:
http://www.mrn.gouv.qc.ca/cartes/index.jsp
and maybe:
http://sigeom.mrnfp.gouv.qc.ca/signet/classes/I0101_index?l=a
I'm not familiar with the province of Quebec's mapping products, but it's likely that they'll have some sort of topographic mapping at 1:20K or better (Ontario has OBM maps at 1:5K, 1:10K & 1:20K available digitally and on manuscript from MNR - I used some 1:20K to make a mapping package to co-drive Black Bear one year)
The area in which Perce Neige takes place is heavy into forest product extraction - the reason the roads are there in the first place. The forest companies keep very up-to-date GIS showing the forest road networks along with topography - a possible source as well.
I always understood there to be no prohibition on publicly-available maps, but I can't remember actually confirming this anywhere.
Robin
Ole,
Have a look around:
http://www.mrn.gouv.qc.ca/cartes/index.jsp
and maybe:
http://sigeom.mrnfp.gouv.qc.ca/signet/classes/I0101_index?l=a
I'm not familiar with the province of Quebec's mapping products, but it's likely that they'll have some sort of topographic mapping at 1:20K or better (Ontario has OBM maps at 1:5K, 1:10K & 1:20K available digitally and on manuscript from MNR - I used some 1:20K to make a mapping package to co-drive Black Bear one year)
The area in which Perce Neige takes place is heavy into forest product extraction - the reason the roads are there in the first place. The forest companies keep very up-to-date GIS showing the forest road networks along with topography - a possible source as well.
I always understood there to be no prohibition on publicly-available maps, but I can't remember actually confirming this anywhere.
Robin
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