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· Mä meen vittu sinne!
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
One person traveled from Colorado, one person from Canada, one from California. The rest were all from Washington and Oregon with the exception of the National Championship chasers.
Wondering what kept others away? I know there has to be more people in Canada and the west coast that rally 2WD cars that could have been there. Why weren't you/they.

We've been offering free video to all the Max Attack competitors. So far 25 people have requested footage from four events where that has been covered. Is it lack of knowledge that it's available for free to Max Attack competitors or lack of interest?

Who's planning to be at NEFR? We are still planning on coming but it is up in the air. I was told at lunch today that there is a very real possibility of me being laid off at the end of July. The $400 plane tickets do not help. We've also sold zero nada from Olympus so far. Last year we sold enough to cover two of three flights for NEFR after Oregon. Is $100 and $200 too much for footage?

Has Max Attack lost some momentum? There seems to be a lot less excitement about it these days. I know I personally don't think they are the best events in each region but I do think they are some of the best and they deliver a great value. Would attendance to MA events be better if the events were different even if it meant foregoing any purse? Or does none of this matter and it all comes down to the shit economy and availability of other cheaper forms of racing (GRC, Chump, Lemons, Rallycross, etc.) pulling privateers from rallying.
 

· It's time for a sexy party!
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For us it's the shit economy. We're running 1 day, 5 hour tow from home events.
Max Attack! is great, but $5000.00 to run one event in Washington, or 4 events in So.Cal., it doesn't take a Stephen Hawkings to figure that one out.
The purse is great, but as in any motorsport event you never know if your going to make it to the finish so you put the prize money in the back of your mind for the event.
I going to guess the disposable income isn't there for most teams these days, and it may be another year or two before it returns.
I'm going to guess the sport is a hobby for almost,if not all, all the Max Attack! entrants. After all the daily living bills are paid whatever is left goes into the "Rally Account". I'm also going to guess that with work hours cut back, laid off(Raises Hand) and increase in daily cost of living like food,gas,light and heat, most Rally Accounts have little or no balances.

Just sayin'.

Sean Gallagher
 

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Grant,

I am hoping to enter a MA event at some point. The whole concept fits the US rally scene and its economy better than anything else and it also fits the majority of cars sold today(2WD).
-The MA organizers have to balance a lot of things and their choice of venues makes sense considering that they need stable events with good coverage. But, I would have been a lot more excited to run MA if the west coast qualifier was held at a twistier event(current Rally Idaho) and the final was back at Ojibwe. But who am I to talk, I have not made it to a single MA event yet... I am just thinking that location-wise, Idaho is closer to the center of the West than Olympus and Ojibwe is closer to the center of the country than LSPR. Weather would also be far less variable at those summertime rallies(cheaper, no need for mud tires).
-Bringing costs down needs to happen and I believe that very long, single day rallies would help a lot. One day recce, one long day rally. Less hotel rooms, less fuel, less wear on the car, less tires, less vacation time, less crew days. Entries are down but even a lot of regional events are still 2 days-how come organizers have not figured this one out yet?
-As far as footage costs go, I think you should charge everyone, including MA entrants, but less(50-75?).

My $.02

George
 

· I drive the car.
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Grant,

I think you know my 2011 rally coin is going towards the build of Bella Blue.

For sure, the economy sucks and is hurting rally entry numbers all over the place.

Honestly though, I was surprised that some local 2WD heroes were not at Olympus. John Lane, Cody Crane and Nate Tennis are tops on that list.

Oly this year did schedule a bunch of super fast roads. I know I prefer the tight and twisty stuff. On paper, looking at the stage schedule before the event, I know I was shaking my head a bit. To win MA on these fast roads you really need a G5 car (or a seriously tits G2 car with Cody Crane driving it.) There are really not a lot of G5 cars in the PNW region. So in the past, when the SRT4s came to town for MA we knew (know) it would be tough to win at MA! Burress Bros have built a car to win 2wd and can pedal that car fast enough to win overall against the SRT4s (and Wyatt, as we saw on Brooklyn.) The Hintz Bros are certainly a threat in future PNW 2WD battles. However, we have a ton of PNW G2 cars that are really going to have a hard time getting on the podium at MA… This can be discouraging… I know that I want to at least have a chance of winning my class, or I’m throwing the towel. I’m a pretty competitive person though.

In my opinion, future MA events need to be run on the slowest roads North America has to offer us.

I think the $100 to $200 is a total steal for the high quality video your team puts out. I have begged other rally videographers for footage, and yet still they could never be bothered to produce it. So you guys rock, thank you! I only wish I would have been able to enter a recent MA event…
 

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How many events, of any sort, are you driving in Charles?

I recently realized I don't practice driving, either karts, autocross, rallycross, anything, other than enter rallies. And it then became obvious to me why my skills progression was frustratingly slow. Before MA, the bar has sometimes been SO LOW, competitors start to expect unrealistic things for their overall driving efforts.

I've been able to do ok at various driving things based mostly on my competitive drive. In MA, I ran up against guys with the same drive, but that had made the effort to get the extra seat time, and devote energy towards practicing. It was no longer realistic to expect to be on the podium in that case.

Projecting out, I have been expecting to see others come to that sort of realization - when a series is created with the intent of getting dedicated fast guys to enter, the also-rans will soon get frustrated when they realize that aside from measuring how far behind the curve they are, it may not offer much value to them, or value they couldn't get at any similarly subscribed rally.

The value isn't in the podium finish, but in the intangibles.
 

· Mä meen vittu sinne!
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
So should Max Attack be ready to grow and move away from the shootout format and maybe lend support to regions to form their own championships to support newcomers and privateers and focus more resources on trying to build a National championship with 2WD and try to draw in sponsors and manufacturers? Focus on the Duplessis, Van Way, Knox, and ACPs of the nation? I bet a few more could step it up if it were more meaningful. Should Max Attack merge with the Rally America National Championship but follow the PWRC/WRC lead and select event that are part of the championship? Maybe something like 4-5 of 7 events count towards 2WD Rally America Max Attack Championship. Sno Drift, 100AW, Olympus, Oregon Trail, and Ojibwe or LSPR as the final. One of those events should be added back to the RA calendar anyhow in my opinion. Nothing against NEFR or STPR I was just looking more towards towing reduction for teams and mixed surface. That could probably be done at $10-15k for the year for a privateer team and 25-100k for a manufacturer supported effort.
Two close together east/central early in the year. Two close west events mid year. Final central event at the end of the year. The prize purse of Max Attack. The hype of Rally America. Overlap with the Fiesta R2 cup.
 

· I drive the car.
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How many events, of any sort, are you driving in Charles?
Yeah, not much for me the last two years either... Life has gotten in the way. I have done a hillclimb and a rallycross.. wooo...

I can get in my car and drive 20 mins in any direction and find great roads. I do this often but for sure, it's not like having a closed road.

Grant, I like the shootout format. I think we should keep the shootout format as is, for at least another season before considering a change.
 

· Mä meen vittu sinne!
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Grant, I like the shootout format. I think we should keep the shootout format as is, for at least another season before considering a change.
I like the format too. I think it works well for the private teams. But look at the data. How many teams that do the first event are making the shootout. I almost feel like it's become three stand alone events with a couple guys willing to travel for it. Six people that competed at one of the first events made it to the final event at LSPR. Lauchlin, Eric B, Brian Gottlieb, the O'Driscolls, Matt Bushore, and Cody Crane. That is less than 10% of all entrants.
The question I have is, would combining the RA National Championship and Max Attack be feasible and would it be better. Assuming we are now locked into RA events for the championship due to sponsorship ROI, which I don't know for sure but I am assuming that. Chris Duplessis, Wyatt Knox, and Dillon Van Way have had good Max Attack results. They actually win some money. But so far it's never been enough motivation for them to actually show up to the final event.
How many west coast teams that were at Olympus are going to show up at LSPR this year?
 

· I drive the car.
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Idea:

Assuming another $15000 yearly prize purse is available for the 2012 season.

Reduce the qualifier prize fund to $2500 per event.

Keep the $5000 prize fund for the shootout.

Offer the top five finishing teams from the qualifier rounds a MA tow fund of $100 for every 500 miles of tow distance the competitor lives from the shootout event. Example tow from Oregon is 1700 miles, a $300 MA tow fund.

If 10 teams accept the tow fund, and said fund averages $300 per team, the total payout from the MA Organization is $3000.

The examples $2000 surplus could be used for any number of things, like advertising the series.
 

· It's time for a sexy party!
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I think the series should be for Regional entries only,no dual National/Regional entries.
Have 2 qualifying events, for points only, on each side of the country. One at a National if you feel it is needed and one at good local Regional event.
Have the finals in the middle of the country somewhere. All sponsorship money goes to a tow fund for all the entrants, and prize money for the top 10 finishers in the finals.
Most RA nationals only get 5 or so 2WD entries, I going to guess the reason, is that for the most part you can enter the Regional and run the same roads for $500.00 or so less in entry fee. And the Regional usually has more entries.
Keep the $500.00 for an entry fee for an event later in the year, like your 2nd MA! event.
If I recall the series was set up for the grass roots, little guy rally teams. Having to run Nationals against funded, and some cases factory teams, defeats that point.

Sean Gallagher
 

· rally moto and quad guy
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The Duplessis, Van Way, Knox, ACP's of the nation are the guys who are going to be at the events regardless of MA (obviously as long as they are all RA events). So the question then becomes what is meaningful to the guys who aren't already chasing a championship? If nobody can make the tow, there's no sense in providing two championships for the same people. I relate it to the AMA Supercross series. The 450 riders have the funding for the national championship, while the lites have their own battles on the East and West. At the end of the season, the East and West lites have their own championships, then after that, they have their East vs. West race, however, it's not the focus. The focus is on being either the East champ, or the West champ.

Has there been serious discussion on having a regional Maxattack! series? In the grand scope of things, even the regions can be pretty big for many competitors, let alone the whole country. What if each region had their own MA series within it with 2 or 3 MA rallies?
 

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the goal is to get the fastest 2wd racers in the US to all race against each other.

So splitting up the series won't achieve that. Also having a MA finale @ a RA national makes a lot of sense (esp if its also a ford fiesta R2 cup event)

switching the qualifier prize from a check for cash, to a Tow fund, redeemable only if you Start the MA shoot out. Should dramatically help your turn out the shoot out.

switching the qualifiers from a national to a regional Might help turn out.
if there are some teams who have a cost savings doing a regional only .
if some "big dogs" miss the regional allowing a smaller team to claim the tow fund
if it allows a more central (to the region) or a cheaper rally to be choosen

You could consider adding some verbage so that the top 3 or top 5 RA national (and usrc too , why not?) competitors also are invited to compete for the MA finale .

Now you could have a situation where 5 qualifier teams on each coast won an invite with tow funds , and the top 5 RA national 2wheelers are invited, and its a national. that **could** give you 15 of the fastest 2wd racers in the country, all racing to be #1, at the same event.

I think that achieves the goal the best .... but there's a lot of "Ifs" in my idea...... . :O
 

· which left?
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the goal is to get the fastest 2wd racers in the US to all race against each other.
Is it?

http://max-attack.com/about said:
The goal of the MaxAttack! Rally Series is to fulfill the mission of the RSGA by raising the level and awareness of meaningful two-wheel-drive competition in North America.
Seems to me that the goal that Jake had in mind was to encourage more competition among 2WD competitors, and by doing so, raise the level of competition. In other words, get more people into the category of "fastest 2WD racers."

Should Max-Attack! move to supporting regional championships? I don't know. But I'm pretty sure that in order to attract more people to the sport we need to focus more on regional than national overall.
 

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Mark, I agree, MaxAttack was designed to be an entry for people TOO GO rallying. Personally I think MA should be involved at regional level in every region that has a viable rally series (CA, NE, PNW, etc) and maybe have final end of the year rally that has the top 5 from each series where they can have the prize money. stuart
 

· Mä meen vittu sinne!
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
The RSGA organization is small. I'd guess five people probably. I think everyone should look to places like the PNW region and things that people like Charles have done to encourage more competition at their regional events by building prize funds for 2WD. Sno Attack at Sno Drift is another great example of a community stepping up support of 2WD rallying. Form a group of people, pick three regional events, start promoting those events as your local 2WD championship. Figure out an added benefit for those events. Tow funds, sponsor subsidized entry fee reductions, video production, free schwag, etc.

Some good ideas in this thread!
 

· ITURNRT
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I don't think the whole "you NEED a G5 car" is correct. Yes, you do have an obvious advantage car wise, but good drivers have shown lesser powered cars can still be competitive (Wimpeys, Duplessis, Greenhouse, Bushore, Crane, Zedrils, etc).

When people run these 1-2 events per year, it's hard to develop as a driver so people choose to just build the "perfect car" it seems. You also might get the "fast guys with fast cars" who might only come out for these 1-2 events.

But it does seem that you get guys who will show up for their 1 MA event in their region and that's it.
 

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I LOVE the no prize money switch to a tow fund idea!! That sounds like a great thing to try. Maybe $1000 at each qualifier, with a larger purse at the final. Now the east coast guys may complain that it benefits a west coast team due to the long tow, but it would be great to have those top 5 regional teams out there battling with the national guys. Epic would be 15 team sthat can win it. Could you imagine the top 10 all on the same minute half way through a rally? Epic.
 

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Hey Grant. Thanks for starting the discussion.

I like the format too.
So do I, if that counts for anything.

I think it works well for the private teams.
It's the best compromise for making a meaningful championship for the greatest percentile of the entire market of rally drivers in the United States. "Privateers" can mean a lot of things, but yes, the championship format is the BEST one, in my opinion, for putting private entrants on equal footing to factory support teams. **

But look at the data. ... Six people that competed at one of the first events made it to the final event at LSPR. Lauchlin, Eric B, Brian Gottlieb, the O'Driscolls, Matt Bushore, and Cody Crane. That is less than 10% of all entrants.
Yes, let's look at the data. For the same year in the overall RA championship, Antoine L'Estage and Bill Bacon competed in all 6 events and took 1st and 2nd with 109 and 82 points respectively. 3rd went to Trav with just 4 events at 46 points. (Yes, 3rd place in the championship only ran 2/3 of the rallies!) The next person on the list who actually ran all 6 events was Pat Moro who had a bit of bad luck and scored 39 points. So tell me, is MaxAttack! above the curve or below it? Our percentage (as well as sheer number) of completed championships is greater, our points spreads are tighter, and our competition is better. I think we did just fine, considering the economy.

The question I have is, would combining the RA National Championship and Max Attack be feasible and would it be better.
Good question. Better for who? We are trying to be good will ambassadors to a lot of parties here, but our main focus is on the competitors.

Chris Duplessis, Wyatt Knox, and Dillon Van Way have had good Max Attack results. They actually win some money. But so far it's never been enough motivation for them to actually show up to the final event.
Never? We've only finished on a regional one year. And the last paragraph speaks to how far off that year was for rallying in general.

How many west coast teams that were at Olympus are going to show up at LSPR this year?
Again, good question.

Each year, you have to look around at similar playgrounds to see if yours has the hottest slide in town or needs to replace a rusty swingset. You can't go solely by what happened last year versus this year. Economics of rallying are pretty shitty right now. People want to try the latest craze. Import drag lost a ton of entrants to drifting when it came out. Now drifting feels less than fresh. Likewise, a lot of folks are giving the whole doorbanging dirt circuit racing thing a try. If they like it, they may continue over there. If they like rallying better, they'll come back. They are enough different that both are bound to have their loyalists.

**"equal footing" does not mean that it will be easy for just anyone to come here and get a trophy. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Rallying is hard. And, in my opinion, it's supposed to be hard. It's part of what seperates us from all those goofs with padded tracks, sand traps, and perfectly predictable traction. If you run a few rallies with the truly fast guys, you'll know where you stand. You'll know who's faster than you and who is slower, and when they pushed and when you pushed, and who had a problem. Study your competition. If you aren't at the top, then you have to work harder to get there, and yes, forced induction may help, but not nearly as much as forced will. The most important part of the rally team is the two lumps of carbon atoms wrapped in nomex. If you ain't winning or capable of winning, start with that! Matt Bushore hit it on the head. Know why it's harder to place well now? Because we have succeeded. We HAVE "raised the level of meaningful two-wheel-drive competition in North America." And we've certainly raised the "awareness" of it, too. Now is not the time to dilute it.
 

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Mark, I agree, MaxAttack was designed to be an entry for people TOO GO rallying.
Nope, not really. I mean, we always welcome newcomers! But to say it was intended as an entry level championship is not correct. Equal opportunity championship? Sure. The word Jake and I kept using was "INclusive" instead of EXclusive. A place where everyone is welcome, it pays down far enough to get a decent reward for a fine drive, it costs just 50 bux to enter, it's limited enough and spaced out far enough temporally to allow working men and women get their equipment ready between rounds and campaign an entire championship, and it's valuable enough due to the depth of competition and prestige that sponsors (team sponsors, event sponsors, and series sponsors) can all see some value for it. In short, it is (in my less than humble opinion) the first rally championship in America that was designed around the actual market of rallyists. It serves a greater contingency of the actual population of rally people than anything done by other organizations in the past.

Every time someone tries to make it EXclusive (either up the seed list or down it), I cringe. That's not what we set out to do, and an inclusive format is the ONLY way I see to continually make it successful so that all parties see benefit to help ensure it's future.
 

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I think everyone should look to places like the PNW region and things that people like Charles have done to encourage more competition at their regional events by building prize funds for 2WD. Sno Attack at Sno Drift is another great example of a community stepping up support of 2WD rallying.
Agreed. I've had lots of organizers call and ask (or sometimes just tell me) they are planning on copying what we do in their region. I tell them to go for it. I realize we can't be everywhere for every rallyist across the country, so if you can do something to improve regional competition in your part of the world, do it! Perhaps it will inspire teams to want to try to go bigger for MA next year!

I've had organizers call wanting to have their rally be a MaxAttack! event and it just wouldn't work, but I've suggested to them myself that, though I can't make your event an MA rally, there's no reason you can't create a similar magic for your local guys. Just think like a competitor and ask what would I like? (Besides free tires.)

Does it dilute the competition or turnout for MaxAttack!? Perhaps a little. But the greater good to rallying is improved.

Some good ideas in this thread!
Agreed.
 
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