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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm bored so lets chat.....

I will have another rally car one of these days. I miss the EVO, but it needed to find a new home.

I would like to come back to rallying and actually not financially ruin myself. Blowing up a $15,000 engine two rallies in a row can wear you down.

So Open and Gp N are not in the equation. I've been there / done that.

PGT was a thought, but really 32mm and ECU work doesn't interest me a whole lot with cost/fun/reliability.

So I began thinking about 2wd. I did start rallying in a 2wd Gp 5 car here in the U.S.

Gp 2 seems like you can spend a fairly sizeable amount of money. And I wouldn't run a bare bones Gp 2 car. A Golf was drawn up with Quaife 6 speed / Kazz diff / Proflex suspension / etc....finishing price was $25,000-$35,000 U.S.

So I've began pondering P1, 2 or P3.

I generally like P-class rules as long as turbo's aren't involved.....

So what class out there is popular? Who's rallying what? Are you guys having a good time in these classes?

Brian
 

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>So I began thinking about 2wd. I did start rallying in a
>2wd Gp 5 car here in the U.S.
>Gp 2 seems like you can spend a fairly sizeable amount of
>money. And I wouldn't run a bare bones Gp 2 car. A Golf
>was drawn up with Quaife 6 speed / Kazz diff / Proflex
>suspension / etc....finishing price was $25,000-$35,000 U.S.

Why not help lobby CARS to adopt a group5 class? Pretty easy to get some big smiles for some small bucks...I can't see production being nearly as much fun, given the field of cars available.
 

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if you think grp5 is going to be cheaper than grp2... NOT

maybe to get started, not to run and gun

P3 was a very very close championship last year (down to the final stage of the final event I beleive)
 

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>if you think grp5 is going to be cheaper than grp2... NOT
>maybe to get started, not to run and gun

I can't make any arguement here, for lack of facts in Canada. I'd be interested to see how it shakes out, if it does. US input on the topic?

>P3 was a very very close championship last year (down to the
>final stage of the final event I beleive)

And the overall finish time was very close to the Grp2 winning time as well. Certainly the production class I'd choose if that's the direction you wanted, since there isn't much showing nationally in the other classes.
 

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Well, the Justies are REALLY cheap to buy, build and run. Yes, they are really slow on the straight bits but I can honestly say I had almost as much fun in mine as I did in my ex. Taisto 240HP RWD Corolla. I learnt alot more about driving fast and keeping my speed up in the bendy bits.

To give you an idea of how cheap, all prices CAN$

Base car $2700
New engine, from the dealer $1800
Wheels, $10 each! or 16 for $150
Tires $120 ea, HakkaQ's $75 ea.
Suspension, designed and built for $1000 with Bilstein inserts etc.
Clutch, $50

There are NO performance parts available for it so you either make it or use standard aftermarket bits, was very cheap to maintain.

Justies are getting a little old now, newest would be a '96? If I were building another P class car I'd go with the Toyota Echo hatchback, or Yaris as it's known in the rest of the world. Lots of go fast bits available, including cages etc. but I'm not sure if it's available in the US or only in Canada.

Martin
 

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Im building a new justy for next year...its going to be just like new....

hopefully the otter justy in quebec will do the switch to national by next year...

Last year we were only 2 competing for the chapionship but sometime we were 3 even 4 justy...if you ad all the swift it makes for many p1 car. but, i mostly was getting more funn at chasing down the bigger cars :)

like martin sead its pretty cheap...so we can manage to run whit mags :eek: the civic mag i get usualy cost arond 20/30$ and yoko rally tires are about 150$...but you wont be using alot...i got 8 last year and i still have 4 brand spanking new one that i use for one stages...

i did not know a new engine was that cheap ? i ad mine rebuilt for almost the same...but now i lurned how to DIY it and its even cheaper...

a otter cool thing is that they are easy to work on and lurn.


the only down side are the straight line...beside that it is very funn to drive..we mange to scared our self a few times...


Alain Lavoie
24Rallyteam
http://www.abikeonline.com/24rallyteam/
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I don't have a latest CARS rulebook with me so I've got a couple questions about P3:

1. What are the multipliers for 4 valve's per cylinder and variable valve timing?

2. What is the max. displacement for P3?

3. Limited slips and welded diffs are illegal, correct?

I'm wondering if a 2.0L 4 valve motor with variable valve timing fits in P3.

Brian
 

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>1. What are the multipliers for 4 valve's per cylinder and
>variable valve timing?

There arn't any

>2. What is the max. displacement for P3?

2 litres

>
>3. Limited slips and welded diffs are illegal, correct?


Correct unles the car came from manufacturer with the LSD....than the stock one is alowed

>I'm wondering if a 2.0L 4 valve motor with variable valve
>timing fits in P3.

Yes you may run a honda...

Excellent class...really good competition...but no matter what classs your in...rally cost to damn much...:-( x(
 

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>I don't have a latest CARS rulebook with me so I've got a
>couple questions about P3:
>
>I'm wondering if a 2.0L 4 valve motor with variable valve
>timing fits in P3.
>
>Brian

I believe multipiers are only used in production classes in regards to turbo vehicles. All other multipliers arnt used.

the rules are applied to the actual displacement of the engine. most manufactures round thier displacements (normally up). so if the engine is actually 1987cc or lower than 2000cc you are in P3. if it is 2003cc then you are over and in P4.
 

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What is the multipler for a rotary engine. I'm thinking a RX 8 could be cool in P3!!

Oops, there it is in the rule book, a multipler of 1.5 is applied to arrive at the adjusted displacement. The rule book reads multplers apply to all vehicles with a logbook issued after Jan 01, 2001


1.3 L x 1.5 = Hmmmmmm, 1.95 L adjusted and 238 horsepower, limited slip, 6 speed transmission, 4.44 rear axle ratio. That an intertesting place to start on a P 3 car. Torque is a bit light at 164 ft/lbs but that could be a fun car.
 

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Yup, the RX8 would be a p3 car ... and you're not the first to think of it ;-)
The biggest barrier is the $36K shell ...

When we're looking at production classes we can't forget the P2 Swift + that Suzuki is going to campaign and potentially suppoort.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
When we're looking at production classes we can't forget the P2 Swift + that Suzuki is going to campaign and potentially suppoort.

I am watching the Suzuki situaiton very carefully. IF there was an announcement soon enough.......it would be a done deal. I'd build one and run for the P2 championship.

Brian
 

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>When we're looking at production classes we can't forget the
>P2 Swift + that Suzuki is going to campaign and potentially
>suppoort.

When do we find out more about whether they'll be offering a contingency program or not? Anybody have any ideas?



That being said, I would still lean towards the modified classes. Since the objective is no longer an overall win, I'd think about competition, cost and fun factors.

In terms of competition, Grp5 will be slow out of the box to be sure, 2 is tight, and P3/4 are as well. Whether the factory cars in the lower displacement areas will draw anything remains to be seen. Hey, do well in a similar car, and you could have a 'werks' drive and pay nothing...who knows how long their contracts are for? :p

Cost. I'd rather spend bucks on entry fees than fixing things, and a lot of the stuff you can't touch in a P car isn't too hefty or well designed for this application (with some noteable exceptions), especially on those smaller cars. Slightly higher buy-in, better return on investment for the modifieds, but your mileage may vary.


Fun. Debateable again, since some P cars are a sturdy enough base to have a good time. But the ability to do something like a nice turbo ford ;-) or screaming VW that you'll never have to coax up a hill, cuss the open diff, and can throw the dirt as far around the corner as you'd like sounds like a crowd/crew pleaser to me. BUt then again a Jutsy's so light it'll actually do some nice backflips, so who knows...
 

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>So I began thinking about 2wd. I did start rallying in a
>2wd Gp 5 car here in the U.S.
>
>Gp 2 seems like you can spend a fairly sizeable amount of
>money. And I wouldn't run a bare bones Gp 2 car. A Golf
>was drawn up with Quaife 6 speed / Kazz diff / Proflex
>suspension / etc....finishing price was $25,000-$35,000 U.S.

I'm building a grp5 car precisely because the extra torque band available can mask somewhat crappy gearing. In grp2 you will get creamed if you don't have close ratio box and proper diff, which adds thousands (assuming someone in the field does have those items, which doesn't seem to always be the case!)

Granted its expensive to run at the sharp end of any class, but given the current level of competition I think its possible to run a reliable grp5 car that consistently gives Open cars a run for their money, at a much lower price (both initial and servicing). The fact is that it seems to me there are very few cars prepared to the nth degree within the rules of their class, so that has to be a factor.

I estimate my grp5 project to come in around $10k US, plus about 500-800 hours of labour (charging myself $0/hour heh).

At least, that's my thinking which seems to be based in fact, time will tell once its done ;)

Skye
 

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>When we're looking at production classes we can't forget the
>P2 Swift + that Suzuki is going to campaign and potentially
>suppoort.

Keith:

By "potentially support", did you mean some form of awards program for anyone driving a Suzuki? I had not heard of that.

Doug Woods
 

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>Keith:
>By "potentially support", did you mean some form of awards
>program for anyone driving a Suzuki? I had not heard of
>that.

Doug, I have no Idea what their plans are but the last line from their press release reads; "Suzuki Canada is strongly committed to the series and has future plans for more entries in this growing spectator sport."

Not sure if they mean more factory backed competitors (hopefully western based this time, since the growth is HUGE out here) or some level of support that would make the car attractive to privateers. (kinda like the contingency that subaru took away this year ... that money is what made many people look at the subarus.)
 
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