Since we have integrated seeding, and seem to be in a mood to discuss change, how about we drop the pretense that ClubRally and "Pro"Rally are different and change the car number backers and windshield stickers to say PerformanceRally? I am not saying anything like merging them, there will still be Club (regional really, they are no less "Pro") and "Pro" (national, they are no more "Pro) lets just remove the fallacy (which is defacto already with integrated seeding) that they are in any real way different.
Lets drop the pretense...
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I am in complete agreement with your position!
Bill Rhodes
Bill Rhodes
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RE: Lets drop the pretense...Good idea, but...
If the geniuses on the payroll who were supposed to be marketing and promo guys ever figuered out what they were doing, or maybe knew anything about rally or promotion, they would know that the top space and the windsheild are prime places for Series alternatively Event Sponsor name to appear and can be pitched to potential event sponsors for MOOOLAH in exchange for the high visibility of that location.
A small sticker somewhere is suffcient, the purpose of the event is not to hype SCCA or NASA, and it's a waste as it is.
The results should alway show straight from top to bottom stage times and totals with a little N or D after the car number indicating which part of the days program the car is in.
After all, the SCCA has been making all their Growth propaganda and "for Immediate Release" Press releases quoting XX numbers of cars and they have consistantly counted all cars to make it sound good, well count them at the end, too.
And FULL DISTANCE FOR ALL CARS AT ALL EVENTS, no more gypping the poor Divisional or Club guys out of their ability to compare their rewsults stage for stage for the Whole event.
It is a complete falsehood perpetuated by a bunch of older organisers that Club guys 'want shorter events' at concurrent Club-National weekends.
100% of every person who I have ever asked since 1984 if they want more mile has said MORE MILES!!
John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168
Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/
If the geniuses on the payroll who were supposed to be marketing and promo guys ever figuered out what they were doing, or maybe knew anything about rally or promotion, they would know that the top space and the windsheild are prime places for Series alternatively Event Sponsor name to appear and can be pitched to potential event sponsors for MOOOLAH in exchange for the high visibility of that location.
A small sticker somewhere is suffcient, the purpose of the event is not to hype SCCA or NASA, and it's a waste as it is.
The results should alway show straight from top to bottom stage times and totals with a little N or D after the car number indicating which part of the days program the car is in.
After all, the SCCA has been making all their Growth propaganda and "for Immediate Release" Press releases quoting XX numbers of cars and they have consistantly counted all cars to make it sound good, well count them at the end, too.
And FULL DISTANCE FOR ALL CARS AT ALL EVENTS, no more gypping the poor Divisional or Club guys out of their ability to compare their rewsults stage for stage for the Whole event.
It is a complete falsehood perpetuated by a bunch of older organisers that Club guys 'want shorter events' at concurrent Club-National weekends.
100% of every person who I have ever asked since 1984 if they want more mile has said MORE MILES!!
John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168
Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/
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1,275 Posts
RE: Lets drop the pretense...Good idea, but...
> It is a complete falsehood perpetuated by a bunch of older organisers that Club guys 'want shorter events' at concurrent Club-National weekends.
100% of every person who I have ever asked since 1984 if they want more mile has said MORE MILES!!
I don't disagree with wanting more miles, but one important difference is most club events that run beside pro events are actually one event per day, typically 2 events.
It means if you have an off road excurion or mechanical problem you can still compete in the 2nd event, while DNFing the first event.
As a novice, this is something that has really helped me stick with it and GET MORE MILES!
Three times I've DNFed on one club event but completed the other day. (twice due to prince of darkness, once due to suspension issue).
Glenn
> It is a complete falsehood perpetuated by a bunch of older organisers that Club guys 'want shorter events' at concurrent Club-National weekends.
100% of every person who I have ever asked since 1984 if they want more mile has said MORE MILES!!
I don't disagree with wanting more miles, but one important difference is most club events that run beside pro events are actually one event per day, typically 2 events.
It means if you have an off road excurion or mechanical problem you can still compete in the 2nd event, while DNFing the first event.
As a novice, this is something that has really helped me stick with it and GET MORE MILES!
Three times I've DNFed on one club event but completed the other day. (twice due to prince of darkness, once due to suspension issue).
Glenn
RE: Lets drop the pretense...Good idea, but...
Organizers, contrary to what some seem to think, don't usually set out to screw the Club competitors. There are a couple of reasons to shorten the miles that a ClubRally entrant runs at a ProRally:
- Certain roads won't take the extra passes...the guys at the back wouldn't really be racing anyway.
- The last Club competitors get in Saturday morning at 3 AM and have to be up again at 6:30 to start another event (e.g. LSPR).
While MOST people want more miles, they accept the above as valid reasons for shortening one or the other Club event. Some Club competitors also find they're not really in shape for 150-160 miles of stages in a weekend.
John and I must talk to different people.
Two Clubs at combined events is always best if the schedule/roads/personnel permit.
Bruce
Organizers, contrary to what some seem to think, don't usually set out to screw the Club competitors. There are a couple of reasons to shorten the miles that a ClubRally entrant runs at a ProRally:
- Certain roads won't take the extra passes...the guys at the back wouldn't really be racing anyway.
- The last Club competitors get in Saturday morning at 3 AM and have to be up again at 6:30 to start another event (e.g. LSPR).
While MOST people want more miles, they accept the above as valid reasons for shortening one or the other Club event. Some Club competitors also find they're not really in shape for 150-160 miles of stages in a weekend.
John and I must talk to different people.
Two Clubs at combined events is always best if the schedule/roads/personnel permit.
Bruce
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5,777 Posts
RE: Lets drop the pretense...Good idea, but...
Glenn,
What I'm saying is when the events are two say Club in conjunction with Nationals is that the Clubbie EVENT Go EACH DAY whatever the National EVENT goes on that day.
That's what we have always done here in the NorthWest because we are the fairest guys and we all want miles, but in many parts of the country the club guys will on one of the days get a couple of stages less than the National guys, and the BS rationale is "Oh those guys with those club cars are less prepared so they want shorter events..."
As I said every single crew I have ever asked has said aaaawww sheeet I want twice the miles when I finally are at an event, or at least the same distance.
John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168
Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/
Glenn,
What I'm saying is when the events are two say Club in conjunction with Nationals is that the Clubbie EVENT Go EACH DAY whatever the National EVENT goes on that day.
That's what we have always done here in the NorthWest because we are the fairest guys and we all want miles, but in many parts of the country the club guys will on one of the days get a couple of stages less than the National guys, and the BS rationale is "Oh those guys with those club cars are less prepared so they want shorter events..."
As I said every single crew I have ever asked has said aaaawww sheeet I want twice the miles when I finally are at an event, or at least the same distance.
John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168
Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/
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1,275 Posts
RE: Lets drop the pretense...Good idea, but...
I know you were only talking about the stage miles John, I was just saying, don't make it one event.
Time for another pill?
I know you were only talking about the stage miles John, I was just saying, don't make it one event.
Time for another pill?
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142 Posts
RE: Lets drop the pretense...Good idea, but...
I have to agree with John on this one. $/mile is very important to this Club Rally person. I don't feel AS bad when my entry fee reflects the shorter distance but I still feel somewhat jilted by a shortened event. I would personally gladly give up my slice of pizza at the party for 15 more stage miles. I need all the seat time I can get
How about allowing club entrants elect to run the extra stages without being scored. So club competitors who have had enough rally can be done early without loosing competativeness.
I would even be willing to agree to a shortened or non-existant service so the organizers can keep the rally-train shorter. Any Club car that wishes to run the last 3 stages after the final service have to start in minute increments behind the last pro, even if that means a short or no service. Even the chance to run the extra 3 would be a bonus.
The early rise issue could be avoided by not requiring the Club cars to be at the early Parc Expose. No one wants to see our cars after one day of abuse anyway.
The original topic was the branding Club/Pro vs. Performance. I personally don't care what the sticker says.
I have to agree with John on this one. $/mile is very important to this Club Rally person. I don't feel AS bad when my entry fee reflects the shorter distance but I still feel somewhat jilted by a shortened event. I would personally gladly give up my slice of pizza at the party for 15 more stage miles. I need all the seat time I can get
How about allowing club entrants elect to run the extra stages without being scored. So club competitors who have had enough rally can be done early without loosing competativeness.
I would even be willing to agree to a shortened or non-existant service so the organizers can keep the rally-train shorter. Any Club car that wishes to run the last 3 stages after the final service have to start in minute increments behind the last pro, even if that means a short or no service. Even the chance to run the extra 3 would be a bonus.
The early rise issue could be avoided by not requiring the Club cars to be at the early Parc Expose. No one wants to see our cars after one day of abuse anyway.
The original topic was the branding Club/Pro vs. Performance. I personally don't care what the sticker says.
RE: Lets drop the pretense...Good idea, but...
I should have been more clear, I mean in addition to the stickers there should be no difference at combined events. There should still be Club only events, but at a NATIONAL there should only be one event a combined event of the same length, not two or more Clubs. You DNF on the first day...too bad your race is over.
Basically what will differentiate Club and "Pro" licenses is that if you enter a National "Pro" event with a Club license you dont get National "Pro" points, otherwise the event is identical.
I should have been more clear, I mean in addition to the stickers there should be no difference at combined events. There should still be Club only events, but at a NATIONAL there should only be one event a combined event of the same length, not two or more Clubs. You DNF on the first day...too bad your race is over.
Basically what will differentiate Club and "Pro" licenses is that if you enter a National "Pro" event with a Club license you dont get National "Pro" points, otherwise the event is identical.
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RE: Lets drop the pretense...Good idea, but...
> There should still be Club only events, but at a NATIONAL there should only be one event a combined event of the same length, not two or more Clubs. You DNF on the first day...too bad your race is over.
As a current club competitor, I disagree with this. Like I said, as a novice I found it helpful to be able to keep rallying the next day.
> There should still be Club only events, but at a NATIONAL there should only be one event a combined event of the same length, not two or more Clubs. You DNF on the first day...too bad your race is over.
As a current club competitor, I disagree with this. Like I said, as a novice I found it helpful to be able to keep rallying the next day.
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142 Posts
RE: Lets drop the pretense...Good idea, but...
I also disagree with that.
Club level competitors should have as many chances to fix and drive as practically possible.
What would be gained for the Pro or Club field by combining the two Club events into one ?
I also disagree with that.
Club level competitors should have as many chances to fix and drive as practically possible.
What would be gained for the Pro or Club field by combining the two Club events into one ?
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RE: Lets drop the pretense...Good idea, but...
My preference is for one long Pro event with two Club events of equal total distance. Perhaps the second days could start later to ensure adequate rest for all, though I realize organizers have scheduling issues coming at them from a hundred directions. Skipping Parc Exposé to get sack time is fine with me. At combined events, no one is there to see us; we?re just filling up space to make the field look bigger. We end up just talking amongst ourselves away from the crowd, and waiting around long after the crowd has left with the top Pros. (The all-time classic Club Parc Exposé was when some cars could only find room behind the dumpster in the alley behind the Sharon Center. I don?t think we were missed. Fortunately no one mistook our cars for trash and hauled them away with the dumpster...) Maybe we could paint our cars on a mural and carry that to all the events and then sleep in? Of course the other approach is for all the Club guys to get together and throw a big tailgate party in Parc Exposé, with tunes, babes and burgers on the grill; and pull the crowd away from the Pros!
Anyway, I like the idea of a single long event at the top level to demonstrate the ability of going fast and keeping it together for two days (or more), which is a real achievement. It ties into rallying?s history of multi-day epic ordeals, and I?d hate to see the top level turn into short sprints. At the Club level, splitting the event into two is helpful for those of us with little or no service support. It also helps those who swap driver/codriver roles, which as far as I know, only occurs at the Club level. I don?t like the idea of using the Club event as a consolation prize for Pro DNF?s. Pick one and stick with it, at least for the weekend. If you want to run out the rest of the Pro event for no points, I don't see a problem with allowing that.
My preference is for one long Pro event with two Club events of equal total distance. Perhaps the second days could start later to ensure adequate rest for all, though I realize organizers have scheduling issues coming at them from a hundred directions. Skipping Parc Exposé to get sack time is fine with me. At combined events, no one is there to see us; we?re just filling up space to make the field look bigger. We end up just talking amongst ourselves away from the crowd, and waiting around long after the crowd has left with the top Pros. (The all-time classic Club Parc Exposé was when some cars could only find room behind the dumpster in the alley behind the Sharon Center. I don?t think we were missed. Fortunately no one mistook our cars for trash and hauled them away with the dumpster...) Maybe we could paint our cars on a mural and carry that to all the events and then sleep in?
Of course the other approach is for all the Club guys to get together and throw a big tailgate party in Parc Exposé, with tunes, babes and burgers on the grill; and pull the crowd away from the Pros!Anyway, I like the idea of a single long event at the top level to demonstrate the ability of going fast and keeping it together for two days (or more), which is a real achievement. It ties into rallying?s history of multi-day epic ordeals, and I?d hate to see the top level turn into short sprints. At the Club level, splitting the event into two is helpful for those of us with little or no service support. It also helps those who swap driver/codriver roles, which as far as I know, only occurs at the Club level. I don?t like the idea of using the Club event as a consolation prize for Pro DNF?s. Pick one and stick with it, at least for the weekend. If you want to run out the rest of the Pro event for no points, I don't see a problem with allowing that.
RE: Lets drop the pretense...Good idea, but...
What would be gained if the only REAL difference (which is the case in fact) between Club and "Pro" is the type of points you earn:
Club would be same miles as "Pro" in every event.
No cars excluded from "Pro" only events, first come first serve.
Club could compete head to head with "Pro"'s just not for points.
Remove the stigma of Club vs "Pro" in sponsorship negotiations (ok that one is a joke).
What would be lost:
If you DNF the first day of a 2-3 day event you are out.
Here is what I see as the ideal situation. Everyone is on equal terms in every aspect, the only thing that would differentiate Club from "Pro" is to gain "Pro" points you have to hold a "Pro" license, and to gain Club points you have to have a Club license. You can enter a "Pro" (really National) event with a Club license but you can not take points away from a "Pro" in your class. Likewise (as is already the case) a "Pro" may enter a Club rally (like Seamus Burke at last years 100AW) and compete but can not take Club points from the Club competitors.
The points system for manufacturers in the WRC works like that, anyone can enter (like Citroen 2 years ago) but you can not take points from the event unless you are doing the entire series. I see it working much like that, only the license would determine what type of points you get.
Other than the ability to continue after a DNF, what would this cause ClubRally competitors to lose?
What would be gained if the only REAL difference (which is the case in fact) between Club and "Pro" is the type of points you earn:
Club would be same miles as "Pro" in every event.
No cars excluded from "Pro" only events, first come first serve.
Club could compete head to head with "Pro"'s just not for points.
Remove the stigma of Club vs "Pro" in sponsorship negotiations (ok that one is a joke).
What would be lost:
If you DNF the first day of a 2-3 day event you are out.
Here is what I see as the ideal situation. Everyone is on equal terms in every aspect, the only thing that would differentiate Club from "Pro" is to gain "Pro" points you have to hold a "Pro" license, and to gain Club points you have to have a Club license. You can enter a "Pro" (really National) event with a Club license but you can not take points away from a "Pro" in your class. Likewise (as is already the case) a "Pro" may enter a Club rally (like Seamus Burke at last years 100AW) and compete but can not take Club points from the Club competitors.
The points system for manufacturers in the WRC works like that, anyone can enter (like Citroen 2 years ago) but you can not take points from the event unless you are doing the entire series. I see it working much like that, only the license would determine what type of points you get.
Other than the ability to continue after a DNF, what would this cause ClubRally competitors to lose?
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3,611 Posts
Sticker Nazis
So why is it that certain cars entered in the ProRally only are sold ClubRally stickers? Is it to confuse the spectators or because someone does not feel those certain teams are worthy of a ProRally ID package.
Here is a photo of Peter Thomson. 4th Overall at STPR2003, 1st GrN; 9th overall and 1st N American GrN. He did not enter the ClubRally, yet SCCA sold him Club decals at each STPR and Maine.
http://www.onalimbracing.com/albums/2003maine/IMG_0211_001.jpg
Same goes for the Pilons, twice N. American PGT champs, not entering SCCA ClubRallies yet are sold ClubRally decals.
http://www.onalimbracing.com/albums/2003stpr/DSCN3681_001.sized.jpg
If anyone pays to enter the ProRally, have paid for ProRally licenses, sell them the ProRally ID package, especially when they aren't even running in the ClubRally.
So why is it that certain cars entered in the ProRally only are sold ClubRally stickers? Is it to confuse the spectators or because someone does not feel those certain teams are worthy of a ProRally ID package.
Here is a photo of Peter Thomson. 4th Overall at STPR2003, 1st GrN; 9th overall and 1st N American GrN. He did not enter the ClubRally, yet SCCA sold him Club decals at each STPR and Maine.
http://www.onalimbracing.com/albums/2003maine/IMG_0211_001.jpg
Same goes for the Pilons, twice N. American PGT champs, not entering SCCA ClubRallies yet are sold ClubRally decals.
http://www.onalimbracing.com/albums/2003stpr/DSCN3681_001.sized.jpg
If anyone pays to enter the ProRally, have paid for ProRally licenses, sell them the ProRally ID package, especially when they aren't even running in the ClubRally.
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1,275 Posts
RE: Sticker Nazis
It is all about the number assignment. If you've been assigned a Pro Rally number (<200) you get the ProRally ID package.
Glenn
It is all about the number assignment. If you've been assigned a Pro Rally number (<200) you get the ProRally ID package.
Glenn
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2,953 Posts
RE: Sticker Nazis
Just examples of how it used to be done.
Hopefully, we won't see one-off euros getting special treatment while locals get shafted with bad seeding and general distain.
I'm all for a single backer and equality in treatment of the competitors. A Sanctioning body's purpose is to make the competition equal and fair, not to write the finishing order and issue the final press release before the first car starts.
I'm not saying it ever happened but it sure looked like there were times things were allowed to happen that for others wouldn't have been tolerated.
rz
Just examples of how it used to be done.
Hopefully, we won't see one-off euros getting special treatment while locals get shafted with bad seeding and general distain.
I'm all for a single backer and equality in treatment of the competitors. A Sanctioning body's purpose is to make the competition equal and fair, not to write the finishing order and issue the final press release before the first car starts.
I'm not saying it ever happened but it sure looked like there were times things were allowed to happen that for others wouldn't have been tolerated.
rz
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3,611 Posts
RE: Sticker Nazis
>It is all about the number assignment. If you've been
>assigned a Pro Rally number (<100) you get the ProRally ID
>package.
I think it is <200.
And Thomson, a seed1 driver who had 2 top 10 finishes in the 2 most highly subscribed ProRallies (being the only 2 US events he entered or the would have been others), has not been assigned a ProRally number?
The whole assignment of Pro numbers has been based by favortism. Take a look at the # assignments on the SCCA site. Greg Healey, #27?
Don't know what the situation is now, but it was that you had to enter at least 5 ProRallies annually to get a ProRally ID package or pay $500. There are many people still on that list with Pro numbers that have done neither.
>It is all about the number assignment. If you've been
>assigned a Pro Rally number (<100) you get the ProRally ID
>package.
I think it is <200.
And Thomson, a seed1 driver who had 2 top 10 finishes in the 2 most highly subscribed ProRallies (being the only 2 US events he entered or the would have been others), has not been assigned a ProRally number?
The whole assignment of Pro numbers has been based by favortism. Take a look at the # assignments on the SCCA site. Greg Healey, #27?
Don't know what the situation is now, but it was that you had to enter at least 5 ProRallies annually to get a ProRally ID package or pay $500. There are many people still on that list with Pro numbers that have done neither.
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