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don't cut
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Discussion Starter #1
Ok, I think I've figured this out. According to the rule book nazi's out there red crosses are only for "real" emergancies,and everything else is force majure. So the next time a tree a falls in the road we all supposed to stand around with triangles until we are time barred (except Jim Cox who'll be able to just crawl up into the woods with the Bluck and wheel around the thing).

Well, instead of trying to inject any common sense into the rules (this is racing afterall), I've come up with a better alternative. Using the purchasing power of my hardware store, I'm prepared to offer all Rally America teams special pricing on Stihl chainsaws. They can be bolted down right next to the emergancy spill kit, or wherever else you need useless ballast. Stihl is still working on the homologation for the GrN saws, and of course open class saws will require a restrictor. Pricing is not final, but they should be about 1/3 the cost of a Prodrive or Ralliart saw. Call or email me for details.

Lest you think the above the is just me being silly, what do you suggest we do the next time a giant tree falls and the road becomes completely impassible, such as what happened at LSPR?


Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 

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Need ride. Please send money.
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Real lumberjacks like Jake & Dave C use thier limited edition Group F dual blade axes.

I hear Jake takes the Husky gloves OFF when swingin it to enhance his manly cuticles.

Then they go have a fish.

JC
#595
www.gnimotorsports.com
 

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I like it, but can I mount it to my front VRP? Order mine with the optional remote electric start. That way I don't have to unbuckle and get out, just fire it up and drive into the obstacle. All ahead, ramming speed!}(
 

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>Ok, I think I've figured this out. According to the rule
>book nazi's out there red crosses are only for "real"
>emergancies,and everything else is force majure.


I've said it before, and I'll repeat it now. The red cross should ONLY be used for a medical emergency.

Everything else is rally... $hit happens, life sucks, life ain't fair, etc.

I have also previously said that there could be three signs: 1. red cross, 2. OK, 3. something else to indicate a serious problem that is not a medical emergency.

The responses I received indicated that rallyists aren't smart enough to handle the complexities of having 3 signs instead of 2.

My response? If they aren't smart enough to deal with 3 signs they shouldn't be allowed in anything more powerful than a bicycle.

Jens Larsen
Flying Kiwi Racing
 

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I am not here anymore
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>Ok, I think I've figured this out. According to the rule
>book nazi's out there red crosses are only for "real"
>emergancies,and everything else is force majure. So the next
>time a tree a falls in the road we all supposed to stand
>around with triangles until we are time barred (except Jim Cox
>who'll be able to just crawl up into the woods with the Bluck
>and wheel around the thing).

Now, wait a minute! I am a "rule book nazi" (although, after living in Germany and getting disapproving looks when I used the term "nazi" in that sense, I try not to use that term now) and, despite the wording in the rulebook, I think that the use of the Red Cross is more open what is described in the rules. Clearly, I do, otherwise, I would not have thrown the Red Cross for the downed tree at LSPR.

The use of the Red Cross described in the rulebook is what to do in an emergency medical situation happens on stage. That does not limit the use of the Red Cross. There is no wording in the rules that say that the Red Cross will only be used as described there. The use of the OK sign is also not limited to what is described in the rulebook. Also, remember that the description of the use of the Red Cross and OK given by the Safety Steward at the drivers' meeting is also parts of the rules applicable for a given event.

As I noted in the R-A forums, there are too many cases of how and when to use the Red Cross or OK to cover everything that might happen, so some of this needs to be left to the judgment of the competitors on the scene.

Of course, this is only my opinion and is not necessarily what the Rules Committee or Rally America think.

alan
 

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I am not here anymore
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>>Ok, I think I've figured this out. According to the rule
>>book nazi's out there red crosses are only for "real"
>>emergancies,and everything else is force majure.
>
>I've said it before, and I'll repeat it now. The red cross
>should ONLY be used for a medical emergency.
>
>Everything else is rally... $hit happens, life sucks, life
>ain't fair, etc.
>
>I have also previously said that there could be three signs:
>1. red cross, 2. OK, 3. something else to indicate a
>serious problem that is not a medical emergency.

I disagree. When the tree came down on SS4 at LSPR, it crossed a very fast section of road, it was pouring down rain, it was around a bend and there was a collection of rally cars accumulating in the space between the apex of the bend and the tree.

If I (or Martin) had been just standing there or had the OK out, competitors would not have stopped. Except for one car, the Red Cross stopped them. I think this likely prevented an actual medical emergency from happening.

alan
 

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>>1. red cross, 2. OK, 3. something else to indicate a
>>serious problem that is not a medical emergency.


>I disagree. When the tree came down on SS4 at LSPR, it
>crossed a very fast section of road, it was pouring down rain,
>it was around a bend and there was a collection of rally cars
>accumulating in the space between the apex of the bend and the
>tree.
>
>If I (or Martin) had been just standing there or had the OK
>out, competitors would not have stopped. Except for one car,
>the Red Cross stopped them. I think this likely prevented an
>actual medical emergency from happening.


1. I'm not referring to any specific rally.

2. A red cross should ONLY be used in MEDICAL EMERGENCY, NOT to indicate a possible future medical emergency.

3. There should be a THIRD sign that indicates there is a situation that requires stopping (possibly even an emergency), but does NOT require EMERGENCY MEDICAL response.

If rallyists find 3 possible signs (red cross, OK, and something else) too complex for their reptilian brains to comprehend, then they don't belong in a rally car.

Jens Larsen
Flying Kiwi Racing
 

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Dennis you seem to miss the point, this is a step in the wrong direction you are now going to elevate costs especially when I protest Group N cars for running a non-homologated chainsaw! Then I will be happy to turn around and sell said competitor a homologated saw from Prodrive that costs about the same as an an average 3rd world countries GDP and it won't cut anything because it looks like swiss cheese because we have lightened the hell out of it!
 

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I am not here anymore
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>1. I'm not referring to any specific rally.

Didn't think you were. I am not trying to rehash something that happened in the past, but it is useful for illustrating a point.

>2. A red cross should ONLY be used in MEDICAL EMERGENCY, NOT
>to indicate a possible future medical emergency.
>
>3. There should be a THIRD sign that indicates there is a
>situation that requires stopping (possibly even an emergency),
>but does NOT require EMERGENCY MEDICAL response.

I agree. However, we don't have that now. If you are standing out in the woods and you think that competitors need to stop, what would you do, given the tools that we have now? Jumping up and down, waving your arms with no sign does not work in my experience.

alan
 

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2,069 Posts
>I've said it before, and I'll repeat it now. The red cross
>should ONLY be used for a medical emergency.

If I *have to* stop a rally car at speed, I will continue to use a red cross until some other system is implemented. Does not matter if a car is totally blocking the road. A tree is totally blocking the road. A UFO is totally blocking the road. Or some other situation where the rally car must stop immediately. If they absolutely must stop and do, then the red cross did it's job.

>Everything else is rally... $hit happens, life sucks, life
>ain't fair, etc.

Until someone is slow getting out of their car on it's roof in the middle of the road with David Higgins coming 120mph around the blind corner. I was further up the road waving my arms for him to stop, but he did not since there was no red cross. Seems like a red cross would have been good to use in this situation.

>I have also previously said that there could be three signs:
>1. red cross, 2. OK, 3. something else to indicate a
>serious problem that is not a medical emergency.

Why have 2 signs that mean the same thing? The red cross does nothing more than stop the car because it *HAS TO* be stopped. Who cares if it's a red cross or a purple elephant juggling toasters?

Pete
 

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>2. A red cross should ONLY be used in MEDICAL EMERGENCY, NOT
>to indicate a possible future medical emergency.

This is precisely where the cars who see the red cross stop and assess the situation. That's where you say that there is a tree/car on the road and there is no getting by. Flashing the red cross does not immediately dispatch an ambulance. The cars who see the red cross are not to just keep going at full speed assuming there is a medical emergency.

It's not that difficult. Keep it as is.
1. Ok sign - keep going
2. Red cross - stop
3. No sign - stop

Pete
 

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just another old phart
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Well, we saw the pink elephant in Mio as we passed through; the Pink Store (more appropriately known as the Pink Total from early 70's POR's) a few miles south of Mio; and a pepto-bismol pink house just north of County Road 612; all on M-33 while we were at the rally. But we didn't see a purple elephant or even any flying toasters on laptops while we were there.
 

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don't cut
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Discussion Starter #16
>
>Now, wait a minute! I am a "rule book nazi" (although, after
>living in Germany and getting disapproving looks when I used
>the term "nazi" in that sense, I try not to use that term now)
>and, despite the wording in the rulebook, I think that the use
>of the Red Cross is more open what is described in the rules.
>Clearly, I do, otherwise, I would not have thrown the Red
>Cross for the downed tree at LSPR.
>
>alan
>
Sorry Alan, didn't mean to offend. How bout rule book stud?

For the record, I will back you up 110% on your decision at LSPR. I firmly believe it was the right thing to do, even if some feel it was "technically" wrong.

Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 

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We have three signs:

1) OK
2) Red Cross
3) Three Triangles Across the Road

-- should we have something other than the the three triangles across the road? I would not be opposed to it...



The problem with throwing the red cross is that if its heard over the radio that a red cross has been thrown the stage is immediately stopped & cancelled, and medical sent to the scene.

At Sno*Drift sending in medical is not that big of a deal because we have 5 assigned ambulances, 2 back-up ambulances and several additional emergency response teams.

At many other events you may inadvertently call in the one ambulance that is covering the entire event (if that ambulance happens to be serving duty on your stage).

Use your triangles, don't cancel stages needlessly, and don't summon medical unless its absolutely needed.


We should probably discontinue use of the the route book OK and Red cross and move to reflective plastic boards about 1 foot by 1 foot that have the OK sign, the Red Cross sign and the Stage Blocked Sign printed on both sides. One set for the driver, one for the co-driver, attached to the car door...

Red circle with a line through it works for a blocked stage (keep it red - red means stop)


Mike
 

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>Why have 2 signs that mean the same thing? The red cross does
>nothing more than stop the car because it *HAS TO* be stopped.
> Who cares if it's a red cross or a purple elephant juggling
>toasters?
>
>Pete
I like it but maybe a purple elephant juggling three homologated GpN CHAINSAWS!






John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

janvanvurpa (at) f4 (dot) ca

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 

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Good idea, Mike. I don't like the use of the red cross for anything other than medical emergencies. Like you say, it invokes other actions. And, when the use of the red cross was purposely extended to signify another situation (i.e., the use to signify spectators on stage in the 2003 STPR) it was abused promptly at that event.

I like the 'circle-bar' idea for the stage blockage. Still should not change the scoring of Force Majeure. And it's use should invoke a penaly or snaction if used and the blcokage is not affirmed by a few other competitors; we need to be thinking in terms of abuse in the use of these things; it will happen.

I'm ready for the chain saws; we alwasy have carried a come-along, so why not!?!

Regards,
Mark B.
 

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How about a picture of a red octagon possibly with the word 'STOP' across it? That usually* makes cars stop on the road. And that symbol has no medical connotations.

*I use the word 'usually' very loosely being in America where most teenagers learn early on the phrase "No Cop, No Stop".:p
 
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