[mattjohnston]

hmmmm. some of you may, or may not get a kick out of this.


http://insider.speedtv.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Forum&file=viewtopic&topic=702&forum=14&15

From the speed channel forums. Topic titled is scca pro rally a yawn?

 

[SMS Rallysport]

Most of those people are probably NASCRAP loving hicks sitting on their asses who would rather bash US rallying than try to have any type of informed opinion of what it is about.

Do I think SpeedChannel hurts ProRally...maybe for the NASCRAPPERS (i.e. we lose them watching it but so what). To the true fans, any coverage is good coverage.

-Dave

 

[JB Niday]

I read the whole thing... aside from being a wonderful source of misinformation it was interesting to see how a bunch of non-rally people view U.S. rally vs. WRC.

J.B. Niday
www.nidayrallysport.com

 

[Jon Bogert]

Two problems:

1) No pre-running or pacenotes. Worth what? 10% at least. And that also accounts for the precise lines the WRC guys take.

2) Much lower budget production. If you have only one camera--maybe not even very well placed---tracking the car through the turn it's just not going to show much of the excitement. Someone needs to look at the most dramatic shots on the WRC coverage and figure out how they do them--AND COPY THEM FOR THE SCCA COVERAGE.

IMO, those two things account for 75% of the reason that the U.S. TV coverage looks much slower than the WRC coverage. (The other 25% is the quality of the drivers and the cars)

I agree with the basic premise, though. I've had friends watch the SCCA coverage along with the WRC coverage and they say, "Boy, you guys really suck." I'm sorry, but that kind of comparison doesn't help anybody. I'd rather just have the WRC coverage, have people watch that and form their opinions about SCCA rally based on that. Sad but true...

 

[Jon Bogert]

It's not how they view SCCA rally...

It's how they evaluate the product being show to them on TV. And they're right--see my comments below.

If they want to decide if U.S. rallying is dull or boring, they should actually GO to an event and spectate (at least until the insurance mavens prohibit anyone within 100 yards of the road). I think they'd form a much better opinion that way.

Bottom line: If the TV coverage elicits reactions like that--we should either make the coverage better or discontinue it.

 

[Adrian Wintle]

>I read the whole thing... aside from being a wonderful
>source of misinformation it was interesting to see how a
>bunch of non-rally people view U.S. rally vs. WRC.

Agreed. It certainly looked like very few of the respondents had ever been to a rally, or that they understood the differences between an WRC-level driver in a WRC vs. a national-champion level driver in an open-class car. If they realized that the difference was approximately F1 vs. Toyota Atlantic (in all sorts of ways, including TV budget) they might think differently (but probably not ).

Adrian

 

[323]

I'm sorry to say that, but I agree with the posts on speed chanel board. SCCA PRO is boring to watch. The cars look slow, the road are slow and the driver look pretty bad, execpte 3 or 4, and most of all the comentator is horrible.
I think the problem is you cannot compare WRC with PRO Rally.
WRC is the most expensifve the best Rally series with the best driver in the world, when Pro Rally is still a Amateur series with the exeption of 4 or 5 drivers. It is getting better and it is going to take some years to have the same level of driver then an Europeen championship.
Right now we are like the japanes baseball was few years ago. They have Americain player like we have Europeen driver and the reason for that is this player are not good enought for here, so they go being really good in Japan. They play the same sport but a level or two down.
I think Speed is really good for us, even if the show stink now, we have exposure. It is better than noting. If people can watch bowling or pool on tv, they can watch US Rally, we just need to educated them, and us, driver or organizer, make it more excating.
The bottom line is we still Sunday rally drivers who think they could be professional. But 98% of the driver in the US rally are not even close to be PRO and will never be. So wait a few years and you'll see some new guys with the potential of beeing Pro. REAL PRO.
It's a new sport, be patient and it'll get there.

Also,I'm tired of people making fun of NASCAR. NASCAR is the fastest growing motorsport in th US, maybe we should look at them and try to see how they made cars doing circle for hours excating and be able to be on national tv every week end.

I know I'm going to hurt a lot of people ego and I'm sorry, but I want this sport to be as good as in Europe.
Stephan Verdier

 

[Trevor Donison]

>hmmmm. some of you may, or may not get a kick out of this.
>
>
>http://insider.speedtv.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Forum&file=viewtopic&topic=702&forum=14&15
>
>From the speed channel forums. Topic titled is scca pro
>rally a yawn?

If you look at Rim 2001 results, you will see the difference a Full bore WRC car makes...

Plus, my hero John Buffum, look at his last event in WRC... He was several MINUTES per stage slower than WRC cars.

Its like I've said before. If it isn't the biggest and fastest, todays Nintendo generation, thinks it sucks.

Wanna get back to the way Performance Rallying used to be in the US? Take us off TV, and get the spectators out of the forests. When its a secret (and it was mostly for years), then the costs stayed lower...

 

[Havspeed]

Ciao from Italy...

If you had the budget of ISC, you could make ProRally look as good as you wanted...

Matt, if I only had a cellphone...

Andrew Havas
http://www.andrewhavas.com

 

[Denise McMahon]

I agree...I am tired of people bashing NASCAR..I love all racing sports. It takes alot of guts in any racing/rallying sport to get in a car and go at the highest speed you can handle to win and using the skills that you have learned over the years. I know some NASCAR drivers...Richard Petty, Rusty Wallace, Kyle Petty. They do not bash rally drivers. They think you have better driving skills than they do. I know we have talked about it. Also I know Danny Sullivan and he thinks it is great on what you do as drivers dealing with driving a blind course and relying on your co-driver. So quit the NASCAR bashing...please. They started out just the way club-ralliest started... either as a family deal or thinking down the road of going pro. Most of them don't even make it to pro.
When I go back home in Concord, NC to visit the tracks....it is the same guys/gals with their families putting their hard-earned money in the car so they can see their dad or mom race on Saturday night. Also even at the Winston/Busch level. The guys in the back of the pack have teams that just barely make ends meet. Believe me it took them a long time to get where they are at now. It is just SCCA needs to work as hard as what NASCAR did to get where they are at these days....pro or club level.

I and Pat respect all racing sports! I and Pat will not bash any of them. I say it again....it takes guts to get in a race/rally car and go at top speed...knowing you could get yourself hurt at any moment.


Denise and Pat McMahon
Co-Organizers
Tarline and Treeline Rally

 

[Bruce]

There are other ways to look at this...

Several years ago, they couldn't have this discussion, because there wasn't any US rally for them to watch - and darned little WRC. Now, at least, they know there's rallying in the US...and that's not all bad.

We had a call from some people at a GREAT rally venue, who said, "We've seen this stuff on TV and we want it here." None of them have ever been to a rally in person, but they have half the community excited about it. It's time for Mad Mike to chime in with one of his favorite quotes...

I particularly enjoyed the comment that we should run in more interesting places. Seems to me Finland looks a lot like Minnesota or Pennsylvania...and Sweden resembles Sno*Drift...but that's just me.

Bruce

 

[Rich Smith]

>Take us off TV, and get the spectators out of the
>forests. When its a secret (and it was mostly for years),
>then the costs stayed lower...

Trevor,

Absolutely! Yes! Spot-on! I couldn't agree more!

AND..if Rally did return to the almost COVERT sport it once was it would be far more attractive to the outlaw Sport Compact Aftermarket guys that now spend their time street racing and posing. They're not into TV and their getting older. If they don't find a lawful outlet for their energy pretty soon, their just gonna become IHRA or NASCAR spectators. That would really be a shame. Performance Rally could use them and isn't attracting them now.

Rich Smith

 

[Doug Woods]

>Plus, my hero John Buffum, look at his last event in WRC...
>He was several MINUTES per stage slower than WRC cars.

Not sure what your point is here. Buffum's last WRC event was Portugal a few years ago in a Group N car at the end of his career. Thus, one would expect him to be minutes slower.

However, if you were to look at John in his prime in a works Quattro on the RAC Rally in the 1980s, he was as fast as, and on many stages faster that all of the works rally cars. In fact, he won two very long stages in Wales by almost a minute, on each stage, over the second fastest car.

Doug Woods

 

[Morgan]

I still want to bash NASCAR}>

A) I believe the budget PER EVENT of WRC television coverage is fairly close to what the budget of our coverage is for the WHOLE year! That explains alot. Since they have so many cameras out there, the photographers can take some chances with artsy shots that IMO really improve the show. I thought the show was much better when it was not same day coverage, because they included much more artistic views and the editing was amazing.

B) Our show is on after the WRC so it is a bit of a let down (but after WRC coverage what wouldn't be? well maybe strippers would be better)Our show should be on a completely different day or before the WRC.

C) In the WRC the drivers are much more commited because they don't have to pay to fix the cars! So they drive on two wheels or when they roll the car, they just put in to gear and drive off, instead of crying. So inherently, they are more exciting to watch

D) They are right, except for a few places it is less scenic here- Most of the stages are deep in the forests surrounded by trees. In the WRC they go through towns, amazing cliffs, etc. How many rallies are deep in the woods like ours? You say Finland, but the yumps make up for that. This is of no fault of the organizers or the SCCA, it is just fact that the only places that we can have rallies are in the middle of nowhere- Do you think some town is going to let us race down the streets? What happened to the town stage at Maine?

 

[yellowhammer808]

Caution: Rookie opinion


I guess I'm in the minority here, but oh well....

I, like many I guess of late, saw WRC and it blew me away. Couldn't believe my eyes. I thought "this is too cool, nothing compares" and was hooked, bad. I saw a SCCA rally on TV and then thought "damn, I could actually do that!" Not that I had any grand illusions about my driving ability or bank account, but that if I built a strong car and took the right classes/got a license and was patient, that somebody would actually let me loose on a closed road. wow. Being an SCCA soloII competitor, I called SCCA and had them send a rulebook. Very very long story short- I co-drove a couple clubrallies to make sure the hype was worth actually building a car(yes!) and drove my new car in my first clubrally this year....guess my point is that some people won't get it, There's millions of people that love F1 and I could care less. I don't bash NASCAR or F1 or motoGP cause people love different things(I could easily, like "did you catch F1 this weekend? Michael won! wow.). There is something for everyone. Hell, I've seen lawnmower racing on TV with sponsers, series points, and crowds watching. FIA coverage made me a serious rally fan. SCCA coverage made me get out of the damn chair and start building a car. I If I watched NASCAR and said "Hey, I wanna do that!" fat chance. I saw rally and within 22 months was at CT. If people have noticed the differences between FIA coverage and SCCA coverage they are VERY perceptive.
:+



"what does seed 12 mean????"

 

[saywhat]

This is a great thread!!!

There is more to it than great drivers-WRCARS-these are the main reason for the speeds-when one can shift in the middle of a corner while oversteering and the car is not upset at all!!!!-maybe someone should point out that NASCAR cars are not street cars and WRCARS are not production cars. They are both to there sport equal to the car they represent. If they want to see spectactular rally watch group B cars-Finland '85 & '86 & RAC same years.

Doug is correct, don't kid yourself Buffum is still very fast and was at his time one of the best. Oh and the RAC at the time Buffum was competitive was a blind rally!!!!!

 

[Trevor Donison]

>>Plus, my hero John Buffum, look at his last event in WRC...
>>He was several MINUTES per stage slower than WRC cars.

>Not sure what your point is here. Buffum's last WRC event
>was Portugal a few years ago in a Group N car at the end of
>his career. Thus, one would expect him to be minutes
>slower.

A little clarification... In nearly the same car (also basically group N specs), he was able to beat the Sprongles to keep them from running the table that year in Canada. So at the time, even though way past retired, he was still fast enough to be able to win an event outright in the USA/Canada most of the time.

He was as fast as the best Canada and the USA could dish out, and the WRC group was 3-5 Minutes faster over a stage. We still have a long ways to go to be close to the WRC in speed. If we ARE slower, because of money/preparation/talent, then we won't look as good on TV to the new generation discovering American Performance Rallying.

The Nintendo Generation needs to do a few rally events and then go back and watch some WRC in-car... I know that the trees don't rush by hardly at all for me compared to the WRC in-car video. Its amazing when you have a basis for comparison.

I know from experience, its a whole lot faster IN the car, then watching from outside the car.

>
>However, if you were to look at John in his prime in a works
>Quattro on the RAC Rally in the 1980s, he was as fast as,
>and on many stages faster that all of the works rally cars.
>In fact, he won two very long stages in Wales by almost a
>minute, on each stage, over the second fastest car.

 

[jblewis]

A novel way to poosibly improve the coverage

One thing that I have noticed about the coverage and the commentary is that it seems a bit rehersed, even the exclamations!

Even just as an exeriment, I'd be interested to watch a tape of of a show where the commentator did not get to watch the show before writing the commentary.

Just give them an Edit Decision List showing how long each shot is, What stage is shown, and who is in the shot. Nothing else except maybe a heads up if there is a clock superimposed on the shot.

Budget has everything to do with the production values of the coverage we have as compared to the WRC coverage.

Think about how much commentary there really is on the WRC coverage, I admit I haven't seen much of the coverage, but what I have seen is mostly in car, with little commentary.

Maybe our commentators are trying too hard, maybe or producer/editor/videographer should reevaluate what they are shooting.

I don't want to sound like I am bashing Plumer. Far from it, he is making a silk purse from pig's ear every month, no doubt about it!

JBLewis

 

[CrazyEric]

Speedchannel Coverage lacks Passion and Drama

I feel that the main differance is the lack of honest to goodness passion for rally. When a producer is being led by this it infects the viewer.

I think the small budget excuse is over used.

Who remembers the first mini video's that Soul Impact produced with no budget.

Have you seen Soul Impacts first full feature video (COMMITTED) it was so cool it brought tears to my eyes.

The drama and passion is seriously missing from the Speed program.
I want to see slow motion shots, drivers emotion (good or bad) boiling over and the Real stuggle.

When Subaru brought the $500,000.sequential shift impreza to Rim 2001, how much did the English import have to fight to win?

What we have now is a badly produced TV Commercial.

In my opinion USA rally needs to be directed with a passion for the sport, Real Drivers and a little less business manipulation.

Real Roads, Real Rich, Real boring }>

C.E.

 

[Eric Seppanen]

The three things that bother me about the SCCA ProRally coverage are:

1. Bad sound mix. Play a WRC tape- you can actually hear the cars go by; it makes the shot more exciting. The SCCA events are mixed with the car sounds turned way, way down and the announcer talks right over the moment when the car goes by the camera.

2. Bad in-car camera. Who wants to see shaky, blurry, dark video with no sound? If you want high-quality video someone has to pay for good quality gear and set it up properly in each car. Ever wonder why some in-car views look like they're going 20MPH? Because they're using a cheapo camera with a too-narrow lens. Get a good 90 degree field-of-view (3.6mm or less on the little "bullet" cameras) and everything looks worlds better. There was a videotape from some Canadian rally that I saw once that showed a split-screen between two top cars. One looked like it was crawling along compared to the other, but if you watched for landmarks, they were going the same speed! Camera FOV makes a huge difference!

3. Too much time wasted with shots of parking lots, interviews, and other junk. Minute-per-minute, WRC shows squeeze more racing in. Instead of showing worthless diagrams of the stages, show another 20 seconds of car footage. The quick clips of 20 cars jumping on Brockway Mountain Road are a good example of how to jam more footage in.