Special Stage Forums banner

1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
OK, I have the chance to steal (well, buy for a great price) a stock 1986 Toyota Corolla GTS. No A/C, 5 spd, DOHC 1.6 liter, RWD, STOCK. Would this be a good car to start competing in, would this car make a good rally car, or am I living in a pipe dream. Is this the type of car to start on or should I be looking for a FWD? I grew up driving on gravel roads in my dad's FWD Honda CVCC at insane speeds, and have recently driven RWD cars on both rain-slicked asphalt and gravel, but never in competition. So would the guys (and gals) who have driven both, or even better competed in both please give me some feed back.


Thanks,
 

·
400 flat to crest
Joined
·
5,777 Posts
YES!great beginner car. Get a 4.88 or 4.75:1 ring and pinion, weld the diff, diasable the phony-ass variable runner BS as Toyota themselves did, and have some fun.

The motor will do fine as a beginner motor, don't sweat it.
Remember GOOD IS GOOD, regardless of drive configuration.

Plenty of people in the rest of the world still go fast with rwd Escorts, Opels, Volvos, so regardless of what all the sage and nice well meaning people might endlessly repeat, don't let dogma keep you out of it.

Where are you at, what other forms of SPORT or anything have you done?

You will want more power one day, believe me. In the mean time have a blast.














John Vanlandingham
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
768 Posts
RE: A great car - Yes!

- Not only is the Corolla a great beginers car it's good to enough to win ProRally Gr2 championship. A good Corolla will beat the porky factory Mazda and painfully slow Mitsu hands down. Remember, the engine is a base for 245HP Formula Atlantic engine.
- DON'T weld the stock diff - the axles will brake and it'll understeer like a piug. Not enough HP to slide around. Use the stock or TRD LSD
- For more AE86 info, like 1600cc into a 2.0 liter monster and Corolla pics: www-TRS-USA.com
- Good Luck!
 

·
400 flat to crest
Joined
·
5,777 Posts
RE: A great car - Yes!

Hey Kid believe this guy Topi, he know's his Toyota GTSs and he coud help you stay with the car with resonable and progressive upgrades.

And if he says don't weld (cause they'll break, cause like allmost all jap junk the stock parts are inadequate undersized junk, ooooops he didn't say that!), then don't.

He could probably help you eventually put tgether a GTS which you might be able to beat an old 1969 SAAB 96, at least on one stage maybe, _if_ you are the Junior Finnish Champion, tee heee (hej Topi! kommer du ihåg den gången häruppe? Oss på skit begannade 3 rally gammalt däck, det var roligt som fan, va?)

Have fun













John Vanlandingham
 

·
400 flat to crest
Joined
·
5,777 Posts
OI Ben, just looked at your profile, manager at a Ford-Merc joint, eh

The car for you, and all round a better long term bet, especially on this concept of long term growth potential my old favorite XR4Ti.
Cheap to find (free to $500), motor makes enough HP and torque for even experience people so all you do is stitch the shell, add protection and an intercooler, oil cooler, and go. Go look at archives.
Stick with the sport and you'll see that the investment in 30 wheels and spare shocks, spare struts, crossmembers, doors and crap like that becomes a consideration in it self so the ability to shove in a new engine or to convert the same car eventually to 4wd is a nice feature that no other car can offer, and actually be top place competitive in all the variations.

Think hard, the cage prep and shell prep costs the same. the investment will last far longer in the XRATTY, hell you could even, once you have gone over to Cosworth 4x4 powerplant even RE-shell that into a Escort Cossie shell like Mike Whitman is doing right now as we speak.














John Vanlandingham
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
768 Posts
- John, maybe the Corolla guy(finished 3rd in GrA with 150HP) HAD beaten you more than once IF you'd lasted longer than ONE stage! As I recall, your shop size jack in the trunk busted an electric fuel pump and that was it.
- Or was it that your DOMINOS pizza arrived 15 min late? (I'm not kidding, this nutcase John had a PIZZA delivered into woods...John is a living proof - Madness means Genius)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Thats all fine, but with the xr4ti, how accessible are parts? As I scroll through the classifieds, I see many AE86 based rally parts available, and as for the xr4ti, well, hmmm.
Throw Me A Fricken Bone Here.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,757 Posts
Hi Ben

Well it will keep you down in speed so that is good. I have been driving RWD for a long time, and it is sure a lot more fun and dramatic. But, when it gets sloppy, the FWD car will have a real advantage.

If you are looking to build a cheap car, and can do it yourself, this is a cheap way to go. A bit underpowered, but that can be fixed later. If you are going to pay others to build, then I think you're better off with something more "standard" int the rally world. I would not put a lot of $$ into such a car; do the basics and go out and learn in it, and sell to move up.

I'll agree with half the advice on the welded rear; you have to THROW the car all the time or it will head straight off a curve with you sooner or later, and when you are not expecting it. BUT a welded rear sure has good traction. I would start off unwelded, and then think about welding after 5-6 events, and THEN be ready to change your driving style to stay out of trouble. I dunno if axles will break on that car or not if welded. Mine heve never done so, but I have been reeeeal careful on pavement.

Mark Bowers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
768 Posts
- The Corolla GTS rear end/LSD should not be an issue; Most CAME with a LSD. It's not as strong as the TRD one but I've learned how to shim/repair them and they seem to last a season or two. Shimming / repairing is only $ 100. No need for "Miller LSD"
- IF you wanna scare yourself, buy a spool! They are available from Legend car makers, they use the same 6.7" rear end.
PS. Don't remove the T-VIS intake system, you loose that little torque 4AG got.
- Call to Tabor gang in Portland, OR (Silverstone Importers). They have almost turn-key rally Corolla for sale.
- Buy a good rally suspension and go for it!
- Then, when/if you need more power, Call me!
FORD: A good long term project! According to John there are 10+ coming but not in my life time will I see 10 XRTis on the starting line...What ever happened to 4x4 XRTi, custom built to Doc Schader? If THAT master piece didn't work, others'll be worse?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
630 Posts
The benifit of the XR4Ti is that the car was raced, both factory and privateer, for 10+ years in various forms. There is not a bunch of stuff for them over here, but there is LOADS of *REAL* gravel rally parts over in the UK. John V can get the stuff from over there that he cant copy, and he copies all the rest, stuff like suspension of exactly the same specs that the Ford factory team used circa '93. If it was good enough for Francois Delacour in '93 its probably good enough for me in '02.

As John V likes to say to me all the time, and sometimes I even listen:

"Why re-invent the wheel when Ford did it for you?"
 

·
400 flat to crest
Joined
·
5,777 Posts
Topi the Schrader think was a case of a frustrated know-nothing guy
spending other people's money and when garen crashed his $64000 toy on his 4 or 5th stage, the same genius so called manager took the car to some hatchet job bodyshop who f***ked up the work so bad the driveshafts in front wouldn't plug into the diff, too short!

and of course everything was always somebody else's fault for this guy. too much money with too little knowledge. Hey Topi, there are three cars lined up just below my window, and 2 more where the boys are just starting to save (working class boys, they have to save a little, they can't all spend daddy's money)all ready to start cages. I have just moved back into town you know.

as for Sierra effectiveness as two wheel drive, go look at a tape of 1000 Lakes 1987, Blomqvist and some guy named Vatanen in rwd versions, and all these guys can afford the same suspension, almost the same power.
Not bad for beginners.
And they can upgrade eventually, if they choose.













John Vanlandingham
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
768 Posts
- John, '87 1000-Lakes tape is one of my favorites even today!! Nothing comes close to 150 ft rooster tails ALL THE TIME, driven by Ari and Stig. Awesom, indeed...
- I like RWD Fords, have sold Cossie, Euro 2.0 and Pinto 2.3 parts for Euro rallyists for 15 years, so I know something. However, I still haven't seen a SINGLE competative Ford XRTi in the US. Mr Green (?) in WA run one, never too far nor fast.
- I don't think the US sold XRTi is the same as 3dr Euro mobile. US cars are much heavier, have a frame/floorpan like Mustang or Lincoln - way over kill and heavy. There are no rear brakes to speak off and the rear suspension geometric is all wrong, designed to eat CV joints? Sure, it can be made into a winner but nodoby has done it so far.
- If there were a way to import 3dr 1300cc bodies and use that, I'd be interested in, too. That's what winning in Finland, powered by 2.4 liter non turbo Cossie!
- Overthere, they cut the suspension pick-up poins off and re-weld the whole thing the way should be... The result is; More suspension travel, no CV mis-aligment and better tire contact.
- A fun fact: In Finland they use Volvo M47 box in a Ford, in Sweden they use Ford Mk9 in a Volvo! Go figure...
 

·
400 flat to crest
Joined
·
5,777 Posts
>- John, '87 1000-Lakes tape is one of my favorites even
>today!! Nothing comes close to 150 ft rooster tails ALL THE
>TIME, driven by Ari and Stig. Awesom, indeed...
>- I like RWD Fords, have sold Cossie, Euro 2.0 and Pinto 2.3
>parts for Euro rallyists for 15 years, so I know something.
>However, I still haven't seen a SINGLE competative Ford XRTi
>in the US. Mr Green (?) in WA run one, never too far nor
>fast.

Topi pojke! just cause it hasn't happened here doesn't mean it's not a legit idea. Why don't the tjock-skalliga, ull i huvud Swedes love the Escorts as much as they SHOULD, like it's properly understood, and loved in UK and Finland? Are the Finns that much smarter than their half-cousins to the west?
Nej, nej, nej, there were other factors why Escort wasn't as popular as it should be, the dumma importör i sweden in the 70s for one.

It's called inertia of the brain, guys see something done already, and they don'rt know anything, so they think of what they see, simple. Why does the 510 with shitty steering, and microscopic brakes and a joke of a mercedes copy head retain popularity in the US, and a little in Aussieland, but nowhere else?
>- I don't think the US sold XRTi is the same as 3dr Euro
>mobile. US cars are much heavier, have a frame/floorpan like
>Mustang or Lincoln - way over kill and heavy.
Very wrong Topi, it is the same exact floor but with the addition of longitudinal box section stampings which Ford sold in Europe as part of 'Body Reinforcement kit no. 9092963' which also included the inner wheelhousing stiffener, which is also already in place. So in the rest of the world if you want to do a strong shell like in the pretty photos in Fords prep book, you add the parts ALREADY IN PLACE on the US model. There are small detail differences around the headlights.



There are no
>rear brakes to speak off and the rear suspension geometric
>is all wrong, designed to eat CV joints?

Actually the rear drums while not sexy are huge drums, originally from like 72 V6 Granada, but who cares, right here on the shelf are the nice 285mm x 25.4 discs, bells and brackets from GpA car here for copying for dimensions with variation for like local disc bolt pattern and local caliper offset.

and all independant axels suffer if moved very far from original designed range, toe in and camber changes are common.

But again, right here sitting for copying is the early 88-90 spec GrA trailing arms with adjustable rod ends welded into the strengthened steel arms.Now setting toe AT RALLY TIRE RIDE height is a snap, so if it starts in the right place it works like it should.

But in the end at the WRC level yes the system was a limitation and went in the ash can at the start of 'World Rally Car' rules to a strut based system.


Sure, it can be
>made into a winner but nodoby has done it so far.

Ah, but in the land of blind men, a One Eyed man is king, eh?
>- If there were a way to import 3dr 1300cc bodies and use
>that, I'd be interested in, too.

only advantage there would be the nice single window rather than the gross disgusting neauseating double rear window, shell's the same otherwise.


That's what winning in
>Finland, powered by 2.4 liter non turbo Cossie!
>- Overthere, they cut the suspension pick-up poins off and
>re-weld the whole thing the way should be... The result is;
>More suspension travel, no CV mis-aligment and better tire
>contact.
>- A fun fact: In Finland they use Volvo M47 box in a Ford,
>in Sweden they use Ford Mk9 in a Volvo! Go figure...

And here all the MEEERKOOOR geniuses say Mk9 box is utter crap, vomit junk so ONLY use Borg Warner T5, and _I_ say to GTS guys to stick the Mk9 into the Toiletta Commoda GTS with a gearset, easier to do than the Toy box and gearset.
Hey you know the Escort Cos floor/tunnel is in fact a normal Sierra Sapphire floor cut and shortened.
















John Vanlandingham
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
768 Posts
- One thing is good in the Fordland: An enthusiast like John who's willing to share his know-how and makes, stocks and sells Ford parts. That alone is worth a lot! I used to do the same with the Corollas but there's not enough business to invest $ 50K in rally parts anymore (75% went for export anyway).
- How much a XRTi weight? I'll check the weight for a 3dr next month. I'll also check what empty shells go for, if they're much lighter.
- Now, when Volvo has been eaten by Ford (the next Volvo will be Taurus as well - Sorry, gotta puke here...), I may swicth to John's Cosworth camp... and joint to his CCCP (Has been very close to be forged to join before in the frozen waste land!).
- If nothing else, his antics at the service will provide great entertainment!
STILL: You bad mouth Japanese cars but Corollas has been 50 times more succesful than the best Fords (in the US). (Taisto Heinonen, Clive Smith, Jay Streets, Frank Paredes, me, Scott Bros, Vern Johnson, and many, many others)
- Corolla GTS is also FUN to drive, the engine sounds like a real race engine - bone stock! It can be taken to the 7500 RPM redline on every gear, even on 5th (!) and still stays together for 50K race/rally miles. A beauty for sure. The Ford 2.3 liter is a tugbout anchor to that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
that is why people throw that 2.3 in the garbage and swap in a YBD cosworth motor, which can easily make 350 hpand appear stock, pgt class shysting hehe
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
630 Posts
>that is why people throw that 2.3 in the garbage and swap in
>a YBD cosworth motor, which can easily make 350 hpand appear
>stock, pgt class shysting hehe

Huh? Sure the 2.3 is not the most elegant engine, but plenty of street driven "dragster" types get 300+ HP out of them, and I know of a couple with 400+. "Turbo" Joe Morgan made 525 HP in his turbo Pinto and that is with a stock block, crank, and even head albeit heavily ported. He now has an aluminum headed turbo Focus wagon, but still stock block and crank that has put out 780 HP. Is all this remotely relevant to a rally car? Nope, but the point is the 2.3 Ford has the potential to make plenty of HP, but more importantly lots of TORQUE, even if it is heavy and crude.

As for a Cossie YB appearing stock, I'd think those Double Over Head Cams would probably give it away since the 2.3 is SOHC, but thats just me.
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top