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Discussion Starter #1
When Clinton was running for the presidency his campaign "war room" was adorned with a sign that read "It is the economy, stupid". Well... I have a new slogan: "It is the speed, stupid." (IITSS)

It is simply amazing to read months and years of HANS device posts, silly suit posts, harness posts, cage posts, and "how can I make my car faster?" posts.

You can build a cage into which you place a 1 inch thick titanium shell lined with Styrofoam filled with AFFF foam (effectively creating a 2nd womb) into which the driver and navigator are placed. Then you can increase the tire traction, horsepower, etc., and build a 300 mph rally car. People are still going to die.

How many U.S. rallyists have been killed by basal-cervical injuries? (0) How many U.S. rallyists have been killed by fires? (0)

How many U.S. rallyists have been killed by hitting things at too high a speed? (ALL)

Slow down rallying before you have a need to keep body bags in stock.

If you don't want to slow down rallying you have two options: 1. move rallying to stadiums. 2. Cut down all the trees, and install guardrails.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
>I'd rather take a little risk, than drive in a wuss sport.

Fine, but don't ask others to pay the increased event insurance costs, ambulance fees, etc. for your endorphin high.

If you really want a rush: you might like trying base jumping off of a cliff holding a bed sheet above you as a parachute. You'll get on TV and be famous.
 

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>If you really want a rush: you might like trying base jumping
>off of a cliff holding a bed sheet above you as a parachute.
>You'll get on TV and be famous.

There is a difference between a bit of risk, and suicide.

I would LOVE to try base-jumping though (with the proper equipment).

Entry fee's are high all over the world, even places where personal responsibility means something. motorsport is expensive no matter what.

I pay the increased insurance costs for smokers that get $1,000,000 lung transplants, and people that can't eat right and refuse to excersize and then need all sorts of heart operations.

There are alot more of them, a much larger cost to insurance companies. Then there will ever be rally drivers.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
>I pay the increased insurance costs for smokers that get
>$1,000,000 lung transplants, and people that can't eat right
>and refuse to excersize and then need all sorts of heart
>operations.

Stupidity is rampant. Should rally follow the stupidity trend, because stupidity is popular?
 

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your other left, you idiot
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Um, by extension of this "logic", I can't be killed by running into a guardrail?

>If you don't want to slow down rallying you have two options:
>1. move rallying to stadiums. 2. Cut down all the trees, and
>install guardrails.

press on,
 

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don't cut
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How many U.S. rallyists have been killed by basal-cervical injuries?

Possibly 4 although I have not, nor do I want to, read the coronor's reports.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
>Um, by extension of this "logic", I can't be killed by
>running into a guardrail?

No, but would you rather test your theory with a guardrail designed to absorb impact, or a tree?
 

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Discussion Starter #9
>>>How many U.S. rallyists have been killed by basal-cervical
>>>injuries?

>Possibly 4 although I have not, nor do I want to, read the
>coronor's reports.

Name them, and tell us what details you have to support your speculation.
 

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Mä meen vittu sinne!
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Speed is required to make the sport exciting to watch and thus make a base for a professional sport, which is the current goal in US rally.

I'd say the dilemma runs even deeper than slowing the cars down. Yes, the sharp end of the field should be required to have all the fancy stuff. $2000 in safety gear for a $4000 car is ridiculous though.

My solution goes back to Group F. Make everyone start in Group F (I mean everyone, no matter how much money or experience in other motorsports you have). Have two series. Regional is Group F. National is Open. Requires 20 event finishes before a Group F competitor is invited/allowed to compete in Open. Then we wouldn't have so much mediocrity behind the wheel of high horsepower AWD machines like we do now.

Slows down the majority of at-risk competitors and requires some real experience before you can go all out. Also lowers the initial cost to enter the sport by not requiring Hans, expensive seats, and huge maintenance costs associated with 4 driven wheels and a turbo. And would lead to better drivers in the National series and the Regional series and thus, a more exciting and competitive sport.
 

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>Name them, and tell us what details you have to support your
>speculation.
>
>

Why? You haven't provided any details to support your speculation!:+
 

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Discussion Starter #12
>You haven't provided any details to support your
>speculation!:+


Ughh...You kiddies always want proof. Okay here ya go.

After reading this post....

Go out to your car. Crash it into a big tree at 10 mph. Try the same tree again at 30 mph. If your car is still driveable try it again at 60 mph. If you and your car survive that, then try it at 90 mph.

I'll await your post and photos.......
 

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>>You haven't provided any details to support your
>>speculation!:+
>
>
>Ughh...You kiddies always want proof. Okay here ya go.
>
>After reading this post....
>
>Go out to your car. Crash it into a big tree at 10 mph. Try
>the same tree again at 30 mph. If your car is still driveable
>try it again at 60 mph. If you and your car survive that,
>then try it at 90 mph.
>
>I'll await your post and photos.......
>
>
You first!

My point Jens, is that your rant is based what you believe. Which may not be 100% correct. You don't know for sure how many have died from basal skull fracture, unless you're a medical examiner too! Which I somehow doubt! Don't hold Richard to a higher standard than you have provided in this post!

Rob
 

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Discussion Starter #14
>>Don't hold Richard to a higher standard than
>>you have provided in this post!


Who's holding anyone to anything?

Richard said he thinks 4 people have died from basal-cervical injuries. I asked him to name these 4 people, and to tell my why he BELIEVES they died from basal cervical injuries.

I didn't tell him to provide proof.
 

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Grant I've always been a proponent of people starting in slower classes. My knowledge is 15 yrs old at this point but for motorcycle road racing you couldn't just show up and run a 1000cc bike. With that said I must disagree about $1800 worth if stuff in a $4000 car , this is situation with my road race car which is an 85HP wonder. The infamous Earnhart incident was something like a 62 mph frontal impact.So seeing as the 85 HP wonder will do 85-90 I figured better safe than sorry. As an organizer I'm all for slower cars for newbies but I'm also for all the gear as well.
Jens I'm not very detail oriented but wasn't a basil skull fracture listed in the Lovell incident?? I think bringing the speeds down is a good idea but you still need the latest gear.
I'd be interested to hear some proposals on how to slow the cars.
And for the record even when I road raced bikes I never bought into the whole element of danger is exciting , I enjoy racing and it happens to be dangerous......the danger doesn't add anything for me.

Tom
 

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Discussion Starter #16
> Jens I'm not very detail oriented but wasn't a basil skull
>fracture listed in the Lovell incident??

I don't know. The only rumor (and I stress RUMOR) I heard was they crashed into a tree sideways at high speed. I have no idea what killed them... it was, and apparently still is, a secret.

> I'd be interested to hear some proposals on how to slow the
>cars.

I would START with requiring all cars to be 100% compliant with federal emissions regulations. I would not allow any modifications to the engine and fuel systems other than safety equipment such as fuel cells. That would be a starting point.
 

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not that simple...

Jens,
I'm not arguing, just pointing out something I know from the years.
If you haven't followed the thread about the Canadian Team Suzukis, you can find it at:
http://www.specialstage.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=223&topic_id=6700&mesg_id=6700&page=

What is happening there is that two of the fastest rally drivers in NA are running Production cars with one-wheel-peel and right around 100HP.
(Bill Bacon claims 103)
The cars aren't "Matt Iorio" quick, but quick enough on stage to make all that safety stuff a good idea.
They are tough, never break and run and run.
Now, Bill says racing Frank in a similar (I won't say identical) car has raised his performance but also his crash rate - and Bill is not a crasher. (Most have been small offs that bent a fender and slowed him a minute or two and thus, made him a "loser").
Picture a field of 50 Suzuki Swift+ cars and a bunch of Yahoos with nowhere near Bill's talent and background trying to match Frank's times.
After that, you'll wish they had cars that'd scare them into braking for turns, having excuses for lifting and have mechanical issues that give their owners a convienient reason for why they aren't competitive.
IMO, having a bunch of dissimilar cars and many classes has made the NA sport slower and safer by not directly comparing ability and allowing everyone a great excuse for going less than 90%.

As usual, be careful what you ask for, it may make things worse.

rz

BTW,
The idea that learning to drive competitively in an underpowered, traction-reduced car in-between trees, for hours on end with a buddy alongside is flawed too. With good instruction and supervised practice, a well-prepared and sorted 4WD turbo car is a bunch safer than a home-made, untested, backyard project with junkyard parts and unskilled fabrication no matter what the HP.
rz again
 

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"...Slows down the majority of at-risk competitors and requires some real experience before you can go all out. Also lowers the initial cost to enter the sport by not requiring Hans, expensive seats, and huge maintenance costs associated with 4 driven wheels and a turbo. And would lead to better drivers in the National series and the Regional series and thus, a more exciting and competitive sport..."

Safety gear is important no matter whether you're driving a $150K GpN Subaudibishi, a Gp5 SRT4MustangXratty, a "simple" AWD 2.2 Subaru, or a beater $4000 GolfNeonSentra. Any one of them can go plenty fast enough so that when you lose it, that tree is gonna HURT.

Talk of "slowing the cars down" is fine, but whatever you're driving thru the forest as fast as you dare to go is sooner or later going to need some serious safety gear for the people involved.

Any sport where speed is the deciding factor is going to prompt normally sane humans to make less-than-sane choices. Has anybody ever figured a way around this yet?

If I FEEL safer (and esp if I AM safer), I'm gonna go fastAr. I don't WANT to crash, but need to be ready if I do. Simple equation.

DG


"...Embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."
 

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codriveur
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First of all, I'm not a kiddie.

Second I accept the risk and costs involved. It's about cost effectiveness/acceptance. (Similarly I do not feel Broadway or anything @ Lincoln Center is cost effective so although I want to go, I don't and I don't complain about the good old days before Perlman and Broderick (Spitzner to you) That's why I rally and well, you used to.

Third majority rules, I like silly suits for the safety reason (plus I look damn good to the women in my life) and enough others don't seem to mind so they are in. Deal my elder with the new reality.

Fourth I hit a large still healthy oak @ 70+ did I get basal seperation, no. But, the transmission and fluid within hit my leg, my sternum, ribs, one arm, lungs all had impact related injuries. I wish to god I had more than seat belts and bags. If that fluid lit up I would have likely have panicked and not have had time to get out. A silly suit would have helped keep me focused on the fact I had time if it happened.

Lastly, did you really stop because of the rules, cost & and the politics?

Speed and innovation are inevitable, the rule makers will always slow the cars down.

Bernie
 

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don't cut
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Jens,
I think both Lovell and Freeman suffered that in addition to multiple other injuries. Also Woolf and Whitacker. And there was also another rallyist killed in 1984 that may have had a neck injury. The question you want to ask, have there been any rallyists killed by neck fracture that could have been saved by a HANS device. Since all the crashes that have claimed lives in rally in the US were very violent, and also very rare, the answer is probably not. Have there been any crashes since where the people who rode through them attribute their relative lack of injury to wearing the HANS device? Yes.

And by the way, putting a fuel cell in a car with absolutely no other modifications is a violation of the pollution rules for that car unless the fuel cell has a C.A.R.B. certificate.

Also putting a 5 (or 6 or 7) point seat belt in a car is a violation of Federal safety regulations and renders a car unsafe for use on the public streets.
Richard
 
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