If Subaru pulls out for 2004...

Glenn Wallace · Dec 2, 2003

....then without the TV package it sounds like the AFR might be in question too.

If this happens, what should the SCCA/MPR/PRB do?

If the manufacturers (e.g. Subaru) decide to focus on healthy contingency packages and event sponsorship, then perhaps the time is right to change the championship.

I think Grp N is the way to go because there was a good contingent of entrants in 2003, and the rules, while annoying to some, are already defined and known.

Glenn

daphne · Dec 2, 2003

What did I miss?

These just rumors or is there any substance here? I thought Subaru already announced that Ramana and Pasi would be driving next year and that they were increasing their contingency program.

Did I miss a press release?

Kartwheel · Dec 2, 2003

Dood, FORGET Grope N

Grope N is a pipe dream in this country, forget it and lets move on to something a bit more important.

Glenn Wallace · Dec 2, 2003

RE: What did I miss?

There is no substance; just rumor, gossip and speculation.
It is a "what if" question.

Given Greg Pachman's comments in the "AFR Focus for sale" thread, it might be worth discussing.

Glenn

Trevor Donison · Dec 2, 2003

RE: What did I miss?

>There is no substance; just rumor, gossip and speculation.
>It is a "what if" question.
>
>Given Greg Pachman's comments in the "AFR Focus for sale"
>thread, it might be worth discussing.
>
>Glenn

I think a reasonable question. If Subaru doesn't at least have the appearance of competition, I'm not sure they want to be the "bully" beating all the privateers with 150-200 horsepower advantage. It would be worse than showing up at Rim with a WRC car.

I also don't think they are interested in paying the entire cost for an hour of television for each event.

The new Subaru Contingency for 2004 is about a third of the one for 2003. Group N championship will only pay 8000 and you have to enter a minimum of 6 events to even get paid at all. Per event is still about the same as 2003 though.

AFR sounds like they won't play if they can't keep an hour of television. They are only sponsoring for exposure. No exposure, they'll go somewhere else.

Mitsubishi pulling out has caused some chips to fall, and I'm not sure that the fall out from that has finished yet.

I'm sure if Libra racing thinks there is a competition vacume JB has enough contacts to fill it.

Where does this leave us? I'm not sure yet, but it seems like "resurgent" ProRally may have left with Kurt.

If we still have all of the SCCA management at every event and no Manufacturers to help pay for it, I imagine the entry fees are going to HAVE to increase yet again.

Glenn Wallace · Dec 2, 2003

RE: What did I miss?

> The new Subaru Contingency for 2004 is about a third of the one for 2003. Group N championship will only pay 8000 and you have to enter a minimum of 6 events to even get paid at all. Per event is still about the same as 2003 though.

If they pulled out as an entrant, they could increase this fund, presumably.

FMF · Dec 3, 2003

RE: Dood, FORGET Grope N

>Grope N is a pipe dream in this country, forget it and lets
>move on to something a bit more important.

Some very devoted intelligent people spent some time on this. http://www.specialstage.com/forum/c...d_count&om=1976&forum=DCForumID2&viewmode=all You spent less than a minute shooting it down point blank. I can only assume you have a better plan all worked out and ready to implement so enlighten us.

Ray · Dec 3, 2003

Could it be that people are getting "Manufacturer Involvement", "Manufacturer Participation" and "Manufacturer Support" mixed up?
All that would happen is that we get back to basics. Lesser funded drivers and teams would have more of a chance to compete. Would that be a bad thing?
I'm not saying that I want to see the Manufacturers leave.

Whiplash RallyeSport

Gravel Spray · Dec 3, 2003

RE: Dood, FORGET Grope N

>Grope N is a pipe dream in this country, forget it and lets
>move on to something a bit more important.
______________________________

Not nessesarly, a variation of the Assuie ProtoN rules would work perfectly here in the USA, The psuedo GN cars populating the series already would be legal(just paperwork), the PGT guys are more or less there(Stephan V!), and real GN cars are in. The point is, depth of feild, we have NONE!!!

Why have 2-3-maybe-4 guys in each class(at all, much less that could place), and three classes? Why not have all ten guys in one class?

The only arguments I have heard against this(protoN) are from people who have personal preferences on what they want to drive, or have a complete lack of understanding of FIA GN. >>>>These arguments have nothing to do with structuring the series so that it promotes long term growth in ProRally entries, and developing a talented group of teams within the US.<<<<<

Pete

grinner323 · Dec 3, 2003

RE: Dood, FORGET Grope N

What LEGAL group N cars are there in the US?

Philip J. Boer
grinner323(at)sbcglobal(dot)net

FMF · Dec 3, 2003

RE: Dood, FORGET Grope N

Read Pats Post in car consturction. Basicly every Subaru WRX easaly can be. Evo 8s could be if the SCCA would just change the rules and then there is the prototype class. Read the other thread.

grinner323 · Dec 3, 2003

RE: Dood, FORGET Grope N

Okay 2 makes. What if someone wanted to take the rear subframe of a Matrix and mate it to a newer Corolla and use a Group A Celica ST205 driveline... they wouldn't be able to run... as they are using the Group A driveline. Or if someone were to build another Focus... the same as the AirForce one... that wouldn't be legal. Or how about just running a Matrix with the Celica Group A driveline... legal??? No. Or importing any number of Clubman Group A cars from the UK or any other country... those wouldn't be legal in your 'Mythical' Group N wonderland.

Philip J. Boer
grinner323(at)sbcglobal(dot)net

FMF · Dec 3, 2003

RE: Dood, FORGET Grope N

That is the point! Goup A = Big $ and that is what is driving competion out of SCCA pro rally. READ THE OTHER THREAD.

Pete Kuncis · Dec 3, 2003

I dunno, reading the e-mail that just came in from Rally World Magazine....

"Rally World Magazine would like to welcome Subaru of America as our new advertiser for all the 2004 issues. You can find them in the third cover of our next January issue."

I hope they stick around and compete.

Pete

Kartwheel · Dec 3, 2003

RE: Dood, FORGET Grope N

>You spent less than a minute shooting it down point blank. I
>can only assume you have a better plan all worked out and
>ready to implement so enlighten us.

Why yes I do. Leave the freaking Open class alone, there is nothing wrong with it.

You say WRX's and EVO's will be legal. I say think about the inexpensive cars that will be excluded. Just off the top of my head:

Old Audi's
Impreza 2.5RS
Legacy AWD
Galant VR4's
Talon/Eclipse
Sierra 4X4
Toyota All-tracs
323 GTX

Just so we can "fix" a problem that is not the actual problem?

Kartwheel · Dec 3, 2003

RE: Dood, FORGET Grope N

>That is the point! Goup A = Big $ and that is what is
>driving competion out of SCCA pro rally. READ THE OTHER
>THREAD.

I read that thread. The problem with "Pro" rally is NOT the CAR rules, it is the manufacturer teams. If the Open class rules are the cause of escalating costs then why is it only now that it is a problem? You are amputating a finger to fix a brain tumor.

grinner323 · Dec 3, 2003

RE: Dood, FORGET Grope N

>That is the point! Goup A = Big $ and that is what is
>driving competion out of SCCA pro rally. READ THE OTHER
>THREAD.
Dude I READ THE OTHER THREAD. I still think you all are trying to fix a non-existing problem. The same can be said with Group 222. Good intentions all... but??? If I wanted to spend $200,000 on a car... to win 0$'s... who's the fool? Until there is an ACTUAL Purse... there is NO NEED TO FIX OPEN.

Group N is the answer like a Prescription Drug/Medicare Fix was required for the US. If the problem is money... Put a cap on spending. Not that it would prevent anyone from exceding it.

Philip J. Boer
grinner323(at)sbcglobal(dot)net

FMF · Dec 3, 2003

RE: Dood, FORGET Grope N

>>You spent less than a minute shooting it down point blank. I
>>can only assume you have a better plan all worked out and
>>ready to implement so enlighten us.
>
>
>Why yes I do. Leave the freaking Open class alone, there is
>nothing wrong with it.
>
>You say WRX's and EVO's will be legal. I say think about the
>inexpensive cars that will be excluded. Just off the top of
>my head:
>
>Old Audi's
>Impreza 2.5RS
>Legacy AWD
>Galant VR4's
>Talon/Eclipse
>Sierra 4X4
>Toyota All-tracs
>323 GTX

Why do you think that thease cars would be excluded?

>Just so we can "fix" a problem that is not the actual
>problem?

Why do you think SCCA Pro Rally is in atrophy then? How come you are not being paid purses?

grinner323 · Dec 3, 2003

RE: Dood, FORGET Grope N

>
>Why do you think that thease cars would be excluded?
>
Because they don't comform to your 'Mythic' Grope N.

>>Just so we can "fix" a problem that is not the actual
>>problem?
>
>Why do you think SCCA Pro Rally is in atrophy then? How come
>you are not being paid purses?
Because it isn't a viable source of HIGH DOLLAR Sponsorshit. Where is the NEXTEL Rally Series? Where is the WINSTON Rally Series?

Philip J. Boer
grinner323(at)sbcglobal(dot)net

FMF · Dec 3, 2003

RE: Dood, FORGET Grope N

>
>>
>>Why do you think that thease cars would be excluded?
>>
>Because they don't comform to your 'Mythic' Grope N.
>
What makes you say that?
>
>>>Just so we can "fix" a problem that is not the actual
>>>problem?
>>
>>Why do you think SCCA Pro Rally is in atrophy then? How come
>>you are not being paid purses?
>Because it isn't a viable source of HIGH DOLLAR Sponsorshit.
> Where is the NEXTEL Rally Series? Where is the WINSTON
>Rally Series?
>
Why isn't it?
>
>Philip J. Boer
>grinner323(at)sbcglobal(dot)net

If Subaru pulls out for 2004...

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