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Discussion Starter #1
In all this talk of what an excellent opportunity to start afresh, I worry that the tendancy will be to take what is percieved as the safest route and stress something which might be called 'continuity'.

But just like some other well know quagmires, continuity might be jst wasted effort if the _previous course _ was flawed or as we have seen in just the recent couple of years, increasingly unsustainable.

I will say outright that I worry that the SCCAs tendancy of hiring in outside, limited or no experienced 'managers', and the obvious regional cliqueishness of the old PRB are major reasons why the sport has trouble with rentention of competitiors, and crews.

look at the figures and the graphs below and you'll see the strong cyclical nature of entries, and the rapid drop recently.

I say that since it is clear that the sport is seriously F***ed up right now that serious discussion of how it is organiser and as importantly how it is RUN is vital.
Doug H, you are the sole owner of your Rally America, but look at the
excitement at the discussions around the old Gp222 or the revised version of it under GpF; that's because people feel they have clear chance at input or the fancy management term "ownership" of the class.
Look at the excitment, work and money people into their rally cars, and that's because they own it.
Look at the effort, time and money organisers and volunteers put into the runninmg of the events and that's because they feel a part of them directly. That's ownership.




[http://www.rallyracingnews.com/scca/entries-79-03.png]


[http://www.rallyracingnews.com/scca/avg-entry-79-03.png]

2004 ProRally Statistics
(After, 4 Events)


2004 ProRally Statistics (Co-Driver



Number of events 2004: 8Number of events entered by driver:
Number of events 2003: 8 2004 2003
Change from 2003: -0
Drivers competed in 8 events. 8 = 8 ( 6%)
Total number of entries 2004: 132 Drivers competed in 7 events. 2 = 10 ( 8%)
Total number of entries 2003: 322 Drivers competed in 6 events. 4 = 14 ( 11%)
Drivers competed in 5 events. 3 = 17 ( 13%)
Average entry per event 2004: 33 4 =4 ( 5%) Drivers competed in 4 events. 10 = 27 ( 21%)
Average entry per event 2003: 41 7 = 11 ( 14%) Drivers competed in 3 events. 18 = 45 ( 35%)
Highest entry single event 2004: 35 SDRW ST 25 = 36 ( 44%) Drivers competed in 2 events. 30 = 75 ( 59%)
Highest entry single event 2003: 63 MF 45 = 81 (100%) Drivers competed in 1 event. 52 =127 (100%)
Lowest entry single event 2004: 27 OT
Lowest entry single event 2003: 33 OT OF

Number of Drivers 2004: 81
Number of Drivers 2003: 127

+Record Entry, 2001 Maine Forest Rally 108

Look at the resistance and discord at the half baked, pie in the sky fantasy policies of Hype driving the peaks of partyicipation, because that what was behind each rise in entries, including the most recent costly ratcheting up under the now discredited but well predicted policies under Kurt Spitzner and his hangers-ons regime.

People felt, and were proven correct, that they had no real direct voice in the course of where the venue where they could use what they owned was going.
They felt the PRB had no power, and this was shown to be correct.
They felt that connection and favoritism was rife and decisive, and this was shown to be correct.

Many felt that the ratio of expenditure to return, in money terms, effort terms, and finally in fun terms was unsustainable.
Since most people would seemingly prefer pull out their "John Thomas" and lay it on the table rather than talk abot the costs to build and run their cars, serious discussion is difficult, but the amount of people spending themselves into serious debt and dropping out (and in some cases disappearing off the earth) is obvious.

Doug, you have only been in this sport for very short time as you know well, and although you have spent a lot of money on your car and running it, you must certainly understand that that is not a model for particiaption or growth that can be held up as a template for anybody who is not really wealthy to follow.

So the big discussions that I believe we should be engaged in is
"What model can we look at to build a more sustainable foundation to the Sport" such that when the cycle takes a drop, it falls from 5000 discete individuals enteringa National rally in any given year down to 4000, rather than the 129 or whatever it is now.

And remember, where the sport is a mass participation sport and not an amusement for a few idle rich, there is a obvious framework of participation in governance by all the members and supporters.


*


John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 

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RE: If at first you don't succeed, again and again and again, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT!

Well put John.

John Lane
Viva Le Pro Le Ralliat
 

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RE: If at first you don't succeed, again and again and again, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT!

Good deal,

Here is my amatuer with some money ideal national champ...

6/9 events scored.

Gp F

Real sponsors for tow fund!

Tire sponsor.. Ooh have them bring a big truck... and let me sign up ahead of time to buy tires at the event at a significantly discounted cost and on truck tire credit!

TV package

REAL website with all competitor info and all the management stuff

Speccies!. No bleachers, thats bunk. $10 packet with wristband, magazine with my info and piccie in it, and a shuttle bus.

Champage for all!

And dont harass kiddies who make a rally video, and put it on their website..
 

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RE: If at first you don't succeed, again and again and again, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT!

Matt, why have 9 events? No one yet has posted a reasoning for why there should continue to be 9 events in the national calendar. I'm not saying 6 out of 9 is a bad idea, but I just haven't seen any good reasons for keeping 9 events. I can only think of reasons against it, as I posted on the "what about a smaller championship" thread.
 

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400 flat to crest
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Discussion Starter #5
RE: If at first you don't succeed, again and again and again, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT!

>Good deal,
>
>Here is my amatuer with some money ideal national champ...
>
>6/9 events scored.
>
>Gp F

That sounds good!
>
>Real sponsors for tow fund!

Naw! Who would have thunk it? Is that what it means to have a series sponsor?
>
>Tire sponsor.. Ooh have them bring a big truck... and let me
>sign up ahead of time to buy tires at the event at a
>significantly discounted cost and on truck tire credit!

What brand?
>
>TV package
>
>REAL website with all competitor info and all the management
>stuff
Profiles and such you mean?
Review of car classes?
>
>Speccies!. No bleachers, thats bunk. $10 packet with
>wristband, magazine with my info and piccie in it, and a
>shuttle bus.
And when they buy a packet they sign a "strongly worded scare some religion into them release" worked out by any of the thousands of ambulance chaser lawyers the country is plagued with so if they wonder off and get squished by some punk in a Evoburu, then the organiser, Organisation, and everbody else named in the suit points out in court the 4 x6 foot blow up of that same release when the law suit hits, and asked "Is that the signature of the deceased on the bottom of this form acknowledging the life threatening nature of spectating?
Well is IT? (smack) IS IT!!!!!!!!!" (oops got a bit carried away at the a;ll the courtroom drama, heh heh)
>
>Champage for all!
>
>And dont harass kiddies who make a rally video, and put it
>on their website..
Good point.
My media is my media, all promotioon is good promotion as long as thet spell the name right.





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 

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400 flat to crest
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Discussion Starter #6
RE: If at first you don't succeed, again and again and again, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT!

Why not retreat regroup retrench and drop the idea of a coast to coast championship full of guys who often can't finish in the top[ ahlf of a NW Club event.
Why not every event in the country counts towards something based on a coefficient based on SS miles? maybe reduced for notational purposes to a 1/10 notation?
Run a short 18 mile event? Coeff 1.8
A medium club level thing w/ 34 miles> 3.4
A quick one day 100 miler? coeff 10
A real juicy "old school early 90s style 180 miler"? coeff 18
Finish points times coeff.
Every event counts toward some vague title thing but enough with this "TOWING CHAMPIONSHIP"


John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 

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RE: If at first you don't succeed, again and again and again, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT!

Because we have 9 events now, 9 organizing efforts that put in countless hours of effort, and because out of those 9 we have atleast 7 or 8 completely distinct events that really focus and have a different flavor (I don't have a great feel for OTPR and OFPR or that number may very well be 9). If you drop events one thing it does is discourage organizers.
 

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RE: If at first you don't succeed, again and again and again, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT!

I've been in an organizing team before. The rally used to be a ProRally which was dropped from the calendar and became a ClubRally. The chief organizer enjoyed the experience more as a ClubRally than a ProRally. It seemed like he lost less money as a ClubRally than as a ProRally. That is just my perspective, but some organizers might be open to the idea.

Another way to look at it though, if no organizers are open to this, is whose interests are more important, the organizers' or the competitors', or even rallying in general?

---

John, I think there are valid reasons for a national championship (hopefully identifying the fastest drivers in the country), but I agree with you that it is currently a towing championship. That is why I proposed a smaller championship. I came up with 6 because it seems an easier sell than a 3 event championship.
 

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3/14=my 42nd rally anniversary
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RE: If at first you don't succeed, again and again and again, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT!

>[http://www.rallyracingnews.com/scca/entries-79-03.png]
>
>
>[http://www.rallyracingnews.com/scca/avg-entry-79-03.png]

Since so many remain fixated with the view in their mirrors let me take my turn to hijack a thread and point out that I once called 1996 the nadir of our sport and got summarily reamed for sharing the opinion. Now it seems there's a graph that proves my point.

How very interesting ...

Halley ...
ProRally #86
http://www.realautosport.com
 

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RE: If at first you don't succeed, again and again and again, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT!

So lets work hard to keep 1996 the nadir, so we can all say "Mike was Right!" oh and more importantly keep from making 2006 the new low point.

I think the idea of a website that has all the team's bio's results etc is a very good idea. I have also thought it would be nice to have a place people could upload thier video and photos to for everyone else to see, so one person does not need to host it all.

Derek
 

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ARF! ARF! ARF! ARF!

ARF! ARF! ARF!

It's pretty clear that Rally America is going to have some kind of program in 2005; NASA East and NASA West already have programs; and I would not be surprised at all if 1 or 2 individual Event Organizers went solo.

It's unlikely that any single organization is going to become king of the rally mountain within the next year. So how about these sanctioning bodies all cooperating with each other a little bit.

What we need now is the "AMERICAN RALLY FEDERATION" (ARF).

Each group runs it's own show as seems best for the Event Organizers it will serve, but cooperates with the others on Schedules and Car Prep Rules(not classes). That's it. The rest is bookeeping. A very loose federation for the benefit of all.

Everybody's welcome.

ARF! ARF!

Rich Smith
Vive le "Pro-le-Ralliat"
 

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RE: If at first you don't succeed, again and again and again, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT!

Calling this years ProRally a towing championship in my opinion takes away from the incredible efforts put forth by the top competitors in the field. Yes maybe some classes are affected by low entry so the tower wins however - does anyone out there really think they could have beat Pat Richard this year if towing wasn't part of the deal? I think what he did is incredibly impressive and I am not ready to write this off as a result of his towing abilities!
 

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RE: If at first you don't succeed, again and again and again, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT!

Yes, Pat Richard is the best and deserved the win, but that doesn't mean that time and money for towing is a major (main?) factor in the championship(s).
 

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RE: ARF! ARF! ARF! ARF!

- Can that be true ???

- Only 127 drivers in 2003 ????

Little Finland had 6536.....

RALLITILASTOA 2003
==================
Osanottajia yht. 6536
Keskiarvo 133
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 

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RE: If at first you don't succeed, again and again and again, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT!

Matt,

Awesome ideas! Tire sponsors, fuel sponsors, tow fund, simple waiver signing and fee paying simplicity for spectators!!! That's how it should be! I race in the Colorado Hillclimb Series and we get tow fund money back after each event, year end prize money, and the spectators merely sign a waiver and pay $10 to spectate from virtually anywhere. Another bonus is unlimited recce and no inlet restrictors! You should come to one of these next season!

Maybe someone from Rally America should contact the CHCA (Colorado Hillclimb Association) for some insight regarding how they handle insurance, spectator waivers, financial give backs, etc. I have a lot of faith in Doug Havir as a businessman, but even he might learn something from the CHCA.

Later,

Aaron McConnell
 

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RE: If at first you don't succeed, again and again and again, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT!

>
>Why not retreat regroup retrench and drop the idea of a
>coast to coast championship full of guys who often can't
>finish in the top[ ahlf of a NW Club event.
>Why not every event in the country counts towards something
>based on a coefficient based on SS miles? maybe reduced for
>notational purposes to a 1/10 notation?
>Run a short 18 mile event? Coeff 1.8
>A medium club level thing w/ 34 miles> 3.4
>A quick one day 100 miler? coeff 10
>A real juicy "old school early 90s style 180 miler"? coeff
>18
>Finish points times coeff.
>Every event counts toward some vague title thing but enough
>with this "TOWING CHAMPIONSHIP"
>
>
>John Vanlandingham
>Seattle, WA. 98168
>
>Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
>Vive Le Groupe F!

What year was Divisional created? The early 80's numbers are probably too high because there was no such thing as Clubrally (divisional rally).

Too many classes at National level. If not at least 3 competitors in a class that did 5 events this year, it should eliminated. But if 2 classes that are similar were to be eliminated (say G2 and 2wd Prod), perhaps just eliminate one of them the first year.

Eventually it has to be realized that only 5-6 privateers will run most of the events in any given year. The current system penalizes people that might try to run just enough to win. If you don't run at least 5 you don't qualify. Under current system, once someone gets much of a lead, nobody else bothers.
 

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RE: If at first you don't succeed, again and again and again, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT!

Hello John,

I don't have a lot of time right now, but let me at least say that I understand the points you make, and am a firm believer in building things from the ground up. I believe we can give the manufacturers what they want, without screwing the average competitor. If you put the hoopla and TV and circus aside, the commonality is that both want well run, safe, affordable events. We're going to start with that basis, and we can add as much or as little fanfare on the top as is deemed necessary.

There's plenty of dirt out there for everyone...

Cheers,
-Doug
 

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RE: If at first you don't succeed, again and again and again, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT!

Aaron spectating is pretty much if you can get there watch from there but its not totally free weilding. Part of what allows CHCA to do that is the worker format, they have a mountain wide visual net of workers that can at any given moment see any given point on the mountain, and all the workers are trained on the risk managaement side of spectator placement. People were moved at Temple canyon because of where they chose to watch from being deemed unfit.



As for the insurance issue, as has been explained to me from people in state that should and do know CHCA insurance per event was at the most 1/5 of what is needed to run a rally under the SCCA. And as you know and I both know all to well CHCA events tend to have a higher car carnage count (is Erica still recovering and are Brian/Larry going to rebuild or restart), there seems to be atleast one entrant that destroys their vehicle per event and multiple that go off each event. In the end Apples and Mandarin Oranges from an organizational stand point.





Edit to make clear what I am saying:
If you go to a CHCA event you will be covered and protected under the insurance. The events are very safe (some of the super stock, stock, and fenderless drivers just choose bad places to "make up time" or just make mistakes, but every class experiences the mistakes) and very affordable if you are within the region. If I remember right someone in this thread basically make back all of his entry and membership money and had a little extra by winning Rally AWD for the season. Its a great series to be a part of it you can.
 

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RE: If at first you don't succeed, again and again and again, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT!

Mike--Of course you were right about 1996.

I had thought the early to mid-80(s) were pretty good on the upside.

How many thought that the BF Goodrich tire program was the best (from such era)? Event support, a good tire selection at good prices.
 

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RE: If at first you don't succeed, again and again and again, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT!

>How many thought that the BF Goodrich tire program was the
>best (from such era)? Event support, a good tire selection
>at good prices.

At the time, it was the best deal in town. They nearly gave the tires away and they weren't bad tires, either. That was before Michelin made their product "widely" available. Jeez, Buffum used them (BFG) in Cyprus and RAC and did well.

Of course, I can also remember buying Cooper Weathermasters 12 at a time for $25 a throw.

--Phil
 
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