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Alternate title: Group 2 by any other name may not be Group 2.
Greets all,

As a large number of 2WD teams from ALL OVER will be in Idaho, I just want to take a second to break out the classes and maybe clear up some of the confusion as the CRS Competitor Liaison. If you don't want to be hit with a competitor inquiry before you even get to tech - this is for you. :D

Idaho is a NASA sanctioned event. NASA has car prep rules, but is a sanctioning body.

Idaho us a USRC championship event.
* USRC two wheel classes = OPEN 2WD, PRODUCTION 2WD.
If your car is Rally America Production Legal (Bone Stock, etc.) you are eligible for USRC Production 2WD. EVERYTHING ELSE is OPEN 2WD. Got it? Easy.
http://www.unitedstatesrallychampionship.com/Downloads/2009USRCRegulations.pdf

Idaho is a Max Attack Championship Event.
* Max Attack brings GREAT exposure for us 2WD guys.
Their class is anything 2WD at 3 events each year. Register and you could win a cash prize based on how well you do. Sure, you may have a slow 1.5l - but turbos break. :)
http://www.max-attack.com/faq

Idaho is a California Rally Series Championship Event.
* CRS two wheel classes = CRS-5, CRS-2, P-STOCK.
- If you have a "RA Group 5" rally car - you are in CRS-5.
- If you have a "RA Group 2" rally car - you MAY NOT be in CRS-2 !!!
From the rules:
"The table of adjustment multipliers below will be used to determine a vehicle’s adjusted displacement. All factors that apply to a given vehicle will be used. As an example a 4-valve engine with variable cam timing would have a total multiplier of 1.32 (based on 1.2 * 1.1). All 2wd vehicles with forced induction or rotary engines will be placed in CRS-5. Eligible vehicles with an adjusted displacement of no greater than 2400 cc will be placed in CRS-2 while those above 2400 cc will be placed in CRS-5."
Engine Characteristic Multiplier
4 valves per cylinder 1.2
3 valves per cylinder 1.1
Variable cam timing 1.1
Diesel Engine 0.8
Pushrod Engine 0.8

- If you have a 2.0l 16 valve motor you are in CRS-2.
Anything above that and you are in CRS-5.
So a 3.0l motor (no matter how much your car weighs) is NOT eligible for CRS-2.
Update your rally registration accordingly. :)

- If your car is Rally America Production Legal (Bone Stock, etc.) you are eligible for P-Stock.
- If you car doesn't seem to fit in CRS-2 you may want to have a look at the CRS P-Stock rules:
"Internal parts are free with the following exceptions: 1. Stock block must be retained in the stock location. 2. Dome-topped pistons are not allowed unless they were stock on the specific body. The stock induction system meaning the intake manifold, carburetor, or fuel injection system and exhaust manifold must be retained. However the stock intake and exhaust manifolds may be modified. The stock carburetor may be rejetted. The choke mechanism may be removed or fixed open."

There are lots of other restrictions on a P-Stock car, but it means that you "could" have a 2.2l 16 valve motor (breathing through the stock manifold) and run in P-Stock. In this example you would be in "USRC Open 2WD" and "CRS P-Stock" with a car that may be fine as "Group 2" in a Rally America event. So it's worth your time to take a look at the rules if you are in this position. You may just need to slap on a stock manifold? If only... ;)
http://www.californiarallyseries.com/Rulebook/index.aspx

Idaho is a Pacific North West Rally Championship Event.
Please someone from the PNWRC chime in: Are your classes equal to RA classes?
Here again I will mention that: Just because you are in Group 2 PNWRC you may not be eligible for CRS-2.
http://www.northwestrally.com/


Any questions?
GO two wheel drive! Be smooth, DON'T LIFT!

- Kris
 

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Please someone from the PNWRC chime in: Are your classes equal to RA classes?
Yes.

We don't have a separate championship for Open Light, that is combined with Open since the NASA events don't have an Open Light class. Rally America national Super Production cars are scored in Open when they run regionals, since their technical specifications exceed the regional PGT class.

But yeah, Open, PGT, P, G2 and G5 are the same as Rally America. All of the NASA regional classes map to one of those.

Ben
PNWRC Championship Administrator
 

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Yes.

We don't have a separate championship for Open Light, that is combined with Open since the NASA events don't have an Open Light class. .....
Ben
PNWRC Championship Administrator
Doesn't NASA have Prototype 2?...it's pretty much the same as RA Open Light... (and credit where credit is due, they had it first!)
 

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N43 37.126' W-115 15.273'
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Idaho is a California Rally Series Championship Event.
* CRS two wheel classes = CRS-5, CRS-2, P-STOCK.
- If you have a "RA Group 5" rally car - you are in CRS-5.
- If you have a "RA Group 2" rally car - you MAY NOT be in CRS-2 !!!
hehe, you MAY NOT be in CRS-2 !!! might be confusing if you are like me and tend to skim over posts. I can see someone reading that to say that if you have a "RA Group 2" rally car - you can not be in CRS-2 and then stop reading.

Just to be extra clear what Kris is saying is that the CRS2 engine limits are smaller than Rally America Group 2 limits. So its not uncommon for cars to be scored in Group 2 for Rally America points while simultaneously being scored in CRS-5 for CRS points.
 

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Alternate title: Group 2 by any other name may not be Group 2....
Your post is the perfect justification for having only one 2WD class. Max Attack has it right. Forget all the convoluted classes of the various sanctioning bodies. Run what you brung in 2WD. May the fastest driver win.
 

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Your post is the perfect justification for having only one 2WD class. Max Attack has it right. Forget all the convoluted classes of the various sanctioning bodies. Run what you brung in 2WD. May the fastest driver win.
Sure, makes perfect sense that a truck with a prep cost more than most homes
should be in a class with a $400 86 Golf... :rolleyes:
 

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Sure, makes perfect sense that a truck with a prep cost more than most homes
should be in a class with a $400 86 Golf... :rolleyes:
Yes, it does make perfect sense. Especially, if they are competitive with each other over the stages.

The truck might be much faster at a wide open dessert rally but would be hopeless at the Team O'Neil Rally on tight snow and ice covered roads.

Over the course of a season, over all types of roads and under varying weather conditions, the better driver will prevail in 2WD.

In the case that you cite above, I suspect that the driver of the truck is much better than the driver of the $400 Golf.

Now, it will be interesting to see if Ken Block's RWD Ford Escort changes everything. He will be super fast at most events, but I would still bet on Chris Duplessis to beat him in his Golf at the TOR.
 

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The $400 golf is still racing against $25,000 golfs in Gp2... A few times in the not so distant past the $400 golf was racing against $75,000 golfs in Gp2.

In reality there are no $400 golfs on stage anyway - the cheapest rally cars should have cost at least $7500 to build in todays money.

The idea a entry level starter car in Gp2 is protected from the big bad guys in Gp5 is nonsence - there are big bad guys in Gp2 too.
 

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Sure, makes perfect sense that a truck with a prep cost more than most homes
should be in a class with a $400 86 Golf... :rolleyes:

I have never seen a $400 Golf that was rally-able.

You could buy an already built golf for $6500 and be competitive. To duplicate that same car from scratch would cost $10,000-$15,000 I suspect.

With equivalent drivers, could this golf keep up with a powerful G5 car (or Bill's truck) on high-speed stages? No.

With equivalent drivers, could this golf keep up with a powerful G5 car (or Bill's truck) on moderate-speed and/or twisty stages? Absolutely
 

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I like how "Bill's truck" is becoming a seperate category. $400 not going to work for a golf, maybe. I don't have much experiance with golfs but my buddy had an Escort that he sold for $200 that would have made it with only the safety equipment plus anything heavier duty than OE struts.
 

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Sorry,
Yes, it does make perfect sense. Especially, if they are competitive with each other over the stages.
One day you might get lucky, but not over a season. Money talks!

truck might be much faster at a wide open dessert rally but would be hopeless at the Team O'Neil Rally on tight snow and ice covered roads.

Over the course of a season, over all types of roads and under varying weather conditions, the better driver will prevail in 2WD.
One make championships tend to bring the best drivers to the forefront by the end of the season ie Sébastien Loeb in the Citroën Saxo cup. Richard Burns Peugeot 205 challenge.

the case that you cite above, I suspect that the driver of the truck is much better than the driver of the $400 Golf.
There is not a driver in the world without a budget able to beat one on an infinite budget.


Rules and classes are a way of leveling the playing field. But people can still buy a title! When competing at grass roots level.
Ian
 

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N43 37.126' W-115 15.273'
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I <3 classes.

Sorry but for those of us without excessive talent (and budgets) classes help keep things marginally competitive. :)

Currently we have both MaxAttack! and RA/USRC/CRS/etc championships to choose from, so all's good.
 

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Sure, makes perfect sense that a truck with a prep cost more than most homes
should be in a class with a $400 86 Golf... :rolleyes:
careful Eli, internet police are on high alert, and all posts are 100% literal....no making a generalized point here!!!


I agree w/you & Ian....but MaxAttack is still very cool. However, considering my geographical proximity to mr. bill holme's super awesome truck, I wouldn't enter maxattack w/o a very fast RWD vehicle!:eek:

:D
 

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However, considering my geographical proximity to mr. bill holme's super awesome truck, I wouldn't enter maxattack w/o a very fast RWD vehicle!
Really? Because if you're in second, you're the first loser, right? Because $1,200 or $1,000 or $800 or $500 is peanuts to you...only worth MaxAttacking if you can win the $1500 first prize, eh?

Okay. Good luck. :)
 

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I have never seen a $400 Golf that was rally-able.

You could buy an already built golf for $6500 and be competitive. To duplicate that same car from scratch would cost $10,000-$15,000 I suspect.

With equivalent drivers, could this golf keep up with a powerful G5 car (or Bill's truck) on high-speed stages? No.

With equivalent drivers, could this golf keep up with a powerful G5 car (or Bill's truck) on moderate-speed and/or twisty stages? Absolutely
Yup, yup, yup, and yup.
 

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Sure, makes perfect sense that a truck with a prep cost more than most homes
should be in a class with a $400 86 Golf... :rolleyes:
There was an article the other day about a couple that bought a house in Detroit for $100.
 

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There is not a driver in the world without a budget able to beat one on an infinite budget.
But pull back from the extremes and you'll find that there are a lot of drivers on modest budgets that are running away from drivers with many times the resources spent and available.
 

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Really? Because if you're in second, you're the first loser, right? Because $1,200 or $1,000 or $800 or $500 is peanuts to you...only worth MaxAttacking if you can win the $1500 first prize, eh?

Okay. Good luck. :)
like I said, the literal police!! I was kind of joking....'kind of' because I know I get comptitive, and if I were to buy/build a 2wd car, and I know who my competition would be, I'd prep to try and hit that bar.


I don't know if John Black is entered in MaxAttack for Idaho, I'll ask him...it'll be interesting to see where we'll end up in a 2WD prod truck....shit, i'll throw in the $50 fee...its $50, right?.

Eric, if he's not already signed up....sign us up, where do I send our $50? :D

(well, wait on that....assuming its OK with John B, just text'd him now)
 
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