[Jens]

If you have seen my proposal regarding creating a new rally class you know why I am about to ask the following:

Does anyone have reasonably comprehensive a list of manufacturers/models of hybrid and alternative fuel vehicles already on the market (or nearing production)?

 

[Bjorn240]

Sure.

Available now:

Honda Accord
Honda Civic
Honda Insight
Toyota Prius
Ford Escape
Lexus RX400h
Toyota Highlander

- Christian

Bjorn Christian Edstrom
www.christianedstrom.com

 

[Andy Swingler]

>Honda Accord
>Honda Civic
>Honda Insight
>Toyota Prius
>Ford Escape
>Lexus RX400h
>Toyota Highlander

Bicycle, sailboat......
both of which have some serious associated racing action. You can'
t save the trees in any way shape or form by adding another rally class. There is nothing whatsoever ecofriendly about moving 200LBS of people in 3000Lbs of metal period. You'll find that any attempts to support car culture with any eco/oil based arguement will be a futile waste of time. They just don't go together.

But on the subject of alternative fuels.... Propane is pretty hot. 250PSI fuel pressure from the tank (read no fuel pump necessary), cean burning, already a gas (read no fancy fuel injectors) and apparently it has an "octane rating" that's through the roof. Boost boost boost Super uber race gas for like 80 cents a litre.

It's going in my subie... can we even run propane in rally? Maybe I can get sponsored with a free BBQ by webber? NAh - why would they be interested in promoting a bunch of dirty middle age forrest harassers that like to keep their seriously ugly car as lound and annoying as possible while spending the minimum of dollars. hey wait - is that just my team?

I'd also rather be covered in Propane than gasoline if my car was on fire.

 

[Lancia037Rally]

Porsche Carrera GTT (Grand Twin Toaster engine)

BTW, we've sold 5 real GTs. A fly yellow one went to Roger Penske Jr who owns the dealership where I work.

The Canadian Prius supposedly was to start entering TSD format rallies or car tours designed just for Hybrid/AltFuel and solar powered vehicles. I think one of these starts near Philadelphia and ends in Washington DC. May be worth surfing the web and finding sites on these events and seeing what is entered. I recall much of it being university's and tech companies battling it out. Maybe you'd be able to draw some of the more adventerous (less geeky)teams into performance rally. Before there is a need for a new class, there should be people interested in entering it.

 

[DaveCotie]

>But on the subject of alternative fuels.... Propane is pretty
>hot. 250PSI fuel pressure from the tank (read no fuel pump
>necessary), cean burning, already a gas (read no fancy fuel
>injectors) and apparently it has an "octane rating" that's
>through the roof. Boost boost boost Super uber race gas for
>like 80 cents a litre.
>
>It's going in my subie... can we even run propane in rally?
>Maybe I can get sponsored with a free BBQ by webber? NAh - why
>would they be interested in promoting a bunch of dirty middle
>age forrest harassers that like to keep their seriously ugly
>car as lound and annoying as possible while spending the
>minimum of dollars. hey wait - is that just my team?
>
>I'd also rather be covered in Propane than gasoline if my car
>was on fire.
>

I am not so sure about propane. The company I formerly worked for used it on medium-duty trucks. It was tough getting consistent mixtures from cylinder to cylinder. Result - burnt pistons. Vehicles run hot in the summer and cold in the winter. Starting in winter is tough. Some use dual-fuel, but then you can't take advantage of either fuel.

Also, it is heavier than air. It will lay in low spots after leaking. (but so is gasoline!)

It does run somewhere around 120-130 octane, if I remember correctly. Natural Gas is above 140!

Dave C

 

[Jens]

>There is nothing whatsoever ecofriendly about
>moving 200LBS of people in 3000Lbs of metal period. You'll
>find that any attempts to support car culture with any eco/oil
>based arguement will be a futile waste of time.

This is the second thread of mine you have polluted with your enviro-propaganda.

My primary interest in this topic is dependency on oil (foreign or domestic), how it might be related to rally, and possibilities for advancing the performance of said vehicles, reducing rally's exposure to attack from enviro-activists, and enhancing rally's image.

The topic of this thread is a list of hybrid/AltFuel vehicles currently in production (or soon to be).

You can always start your own thread if you want to ramble on about bicycles and environmental politics.

 

[Jens]

Using your list, here are a few links:

http://www.lexus.com/models/rx_hybrid/performance.html

http://automobiles.honda.com/models/specifications_full_specs.asp?ModelName=Civic+Hybrid

http://www.fordvehicles.com/suvs/escapehybrid/features/specs/

http://toyota.com/vehicles/2005/prius/specs.html

Interesting....

 

[Morten]

Personally I think it's a great idea to explore !

If only there could be manufacturer interest where the class is limited to suspension, brake, and shell mods.

We all know that racing is a great way to promote products and ideas.

Hybrid/AltFuel vehicles are the future, racing them today could help pave the path...


http://irishcar.com/ICOimages/priusrally.jpg


Didn't David Shindle race a Prius in 2003 in quebec ?

 

[tifosi77]

I remember that the last few years there was a car at Le Mans that was running alt fuel did they run this year they didn't do bad the previous years?

 

[patr]

>This is the second thread of mine you have polluted with your
>enviro-propaganda.

and ,,,,

>
>You can always start your own thread if you want to ramble on

thread pollution, rambling and propaganda spreading... sounds like something someone would post about ... I dunno... some guy who used to be banned from posting in the first place.

 

[Jens]

> thread pollution, rambling and propaganda spreading...
>sounds like something someone would post about ... I dunno...
>some guy who used to be banned from posting in the first
>place.

And your implication is, moi? No, no grasshopper.... I was not banned. I asked to be removed. I was frustrated people wouldn't listen to my "propaganda" the majority of which was with respect to spectator safety being ignored by SCCA rally and organizers, manufacturers being handed SCCA rally on a platter by Kurt Spitzner et. al., and speeds being too high which would result in death and the destruction of SCCA ProRally rally. I suppose I was wrong, eh? Ya'll got real lucky some people picked up the ball. Without them rally would have died.

Back to the topic... hybrid/alt-fuel vehicles. Who knows? You might be able to beat Stig if you drive a hybrid/alt-fuel car rather than an over-testosteroned Subaru grocery-getter. Think of the differential torque you could get with electric motors computer contolled to supply the proper torque to each wheel. No more broken transmissions, no more blown turbos, etc.

You can get in on the ground floor now (wish I had the money to start a shop related to this). There is significant potential here (no pun intended). If I could find an investor I'd be putting together a business right now.

 

[Andy Swingler]

>You can get in on the ground floor now (wish I had the money
>to start a shop related to this). There is significant
>potential here (no pun intended). If I could find an investor
>I'd be putting together a business right now.

Jens, apparently someone has beat you to it - only just tho:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Electric

Check out the hub motors.

Anyway, in keeping with your thread, here's some info you may find interesting.

1) The current easily aquired battery of choice for the high rate charge/discharge requirements of an electric car is the Optima Yellow top.

2) These batteries cost about $200 per KWh and each KWh weighs about 50LBS.

3) The elctric motor of choice is made by a company out of New York called ADC. It's about 10" in diameter and about 20" long. They probably weigh a couple of hundred pounts. You can make an adapter plate and bolt on your current flywheel and then attach the assembly to your tranny. These motors can be custom engineered to create 250 lb/ft of torque from about 1000 to 5000 RPM. That's constant flat-ass torque with. BTW [250lb/ft x 5000RPM]/5252 = 238HP

4) Assuming you us an average of 100HP continuouse on a stage you need about 100HPx.1.5effx.746KW/hp =~ 100KW continuous average from your batteries. 100KW @ about 200V = 500A which is reasonable since most on the existing motor controllers can surge to 1800A or so.

So, all the components you need exist and there is little development necessary.

BUT, you need about 50KWh worth of battery storage to run ONE 15 min stage. 50KWh x 50LBS per KWh = 2500 LBs of batteries.

Therein lies the problem. It ain't happening.

Note - you could certainly do a slower car for 1000Lbs of batteries.

Note2 - subies are the easiest cars to convert.

 

[M Iorio]

At least it's exciting to know that as soon as someone finds the way to cold fusion, I won't have to worry about turbo lag anymore.

 

[randyzimmer]

RE: Alt vehicle list

Or we could each get a tardis and get there yesterday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/

http://sean.adventureteam.com/pages/customs/tardis.htm

rz

 

[Jens]

>At least it's exciting to know that as soon as someone finds
>the way to cold fusion, I won't have to worry about turbo lag
>anymore.


Drop an American ("USer" for those too politically correct to differentiate between Americans, Canadians, and Mexicans) V8 in whatever you drive and you won't have to worry about turbo lag.

It amazes me how much into the dark ages U.S. rally has been taken by the FIA cheerleaders. They have squashed initiative, inventiveness, research and development, the "unwashed", and expunged anything but over-priced, under-powered, over engineered sewing machines with their mega dollar fuel mapping etc. Rally in the U.S. has become stagnant with parts buyers rather than fostering development. The fellows at Demon Tweeks must be laughing all the way to the bank.

Although some people have expressed interest in my hybrid/alt-fuel initiative, others have expressed dismay that I propose a class of vehicles ripe for serious development in favor of their aforementioned sewing machines.

Bah...humbug!

 

[Lurch]

Anything that gets the attention of the manufacturers is a good thing in my mind, and this certainly has potential, Jens.

However, when it becomes a "money" class that is dominated by the very manufacturers you are trying to attract, will we read of how "they" have ruined rallying yet again?

I wonder.

No disrespect, but history has shown that the little guys complaining about the big guys usually stop complaining when they get on the big guy's team.

Cheers,
A big guy...(no, I mean I'm really not a small person)

 

[Lancia037Rally]

RE: Hybrid/AltFuel vehicle with zoom zoom for Jens

Hydrogen powered RX-8 for your stage-cruising pleasure.

Read about here:
http://media.ford.com/mazda/article_display.cfm?article_id=17134&make_id=227

http://media.ford.com/images/large/alt_fuel/H2 RX-8 front 3-4.jpg

 

[Jens]

>However, when it becomes a "money" class that is dominated by
>the very manufacturers you are trying to attract, will we read
>of how "they" have ruined rallying yet again?

>I wonder.

They didn't ruin it in the first place, so they won't ruin it "again". They took advantage of something that was handed to them on a platter. It wasn't the manufacturer's fault.

>No disrespect, but history has shown that the little guys
>complaining about the big guys usually stop complaining when
>they get on the big guy's team.

That is human nature. One should not bite the hand that feeds them.

>A big guy...(no, I mean I'm really not a small person)

You're too big for me to pound on

 

[Jens]

RE: Hybrid/AltFuel vehicle with zoom zoom for Jens

1. Porsche - there is no substitute.

2. Interesting.

3. Stage parking (not cruising) will be done with the current crop of rally cars when there is no more oil.

 

[Lurch]

RE: Hybrid/AltFuel vehicle with zoom zoom for Jens

I have seen the Hydrogen RX8. Neat car. It was approved last year for public road testing in Japan by the Government.

http://www.mazda.com/publicity/release/200410/1027e.html

They are actually building a short run of the cars for marketing purposes. Japan Mazda employees will drive them. They just got the okay for a hydrogen filling station in Hiroshima a couple months ago.

The cars are dual fuel (Hydrogen/Gasoline) so if you run out of H2, you can fill up with petrol to get back to town.

What's the multiplier for hydrogen?