Competitors will not be allowed to continue after receiving assistance from Sweep. We feel that the
practice of allowing Sweep to assist a car still in competition unnecessarily favors the last half of the field.
There is no way to offer the assistance equally to all competitors, so we will offer it to none.
The first sentence was underlined in the document. So could someone please explain to me how Jamie's situation was different than the other DNF's? I would really like to know for future reference. And if someone pulls the "director of such & such has the right to modify any & all rulings etc." than what is the point of having any rule in the first place? How many teams (over the entire weekend) could have continued after receiving assistance from sweep if they knew the above didn't really apply?
This is in no way meant as a personal attack against Jamie (I've never met her)...and if anyone believes this is a "gender inspired" attack than I'm surprised they have the cranial capacity to formulate any assumptions at all.
I would just like to know how, when and where this rule will apply. Dave confused...please explain.
>Jamie told us at the rally that sweep bumped her from
>behind, which was legal because sweep never actually passed
Could you explain the "rationale" (sp?) behind your comment? In my opinion, assistance from sweep, whether it is from behind, the sides, or underneath, is still assistance. If what you are saying is true, and it would have been me in that situation,I would have DQ'd myself (and I have in the past) since, in the true spirit of fair competitiveness, it would have not been fair to the other competitors. Am I missing something in the rules that said that "bumping from behind is legal but towing from the front is not?
We were stuck on the first stage of the second day and needed sweep to pull us out.
The course closing car asked us if we needed sweeps help. We of course said yes, and they made it clear that we would be out of the event and we would have to turn our time card in to the course closing car.
There is no infront or behind sweep, just assistance from that counted. The supps were clear; if you get any help from sweep you are out of the rally.
Jamie got away with it; I don't think there is any grand conspiracy, at play. She got a break and made the best of it.
I heard about that too at the event. (The rule in the supps) I don't know if Jamie wants to answer this here, but they didn't take her timecard as she expected, so she just kept running the stages and seeing when/if she'd get DQ'd and just used the stages as a practice. The worst that could happen is a DQ right? So might as well get in as many stages as possible. Well, everyone that knew didn't really care, and I guess other people didn't know about it that did care. The only person it really took away points from is Emilio Lezcano (Hyundai P car) who was just there to write an article, so there's no point in getting upset.
All she wanted was seat time. Does that bother anyone? Although, I can understand the envy if you didn't get to keep going after sweep gave you a tug and she did.
It is unfair to other drivers who, in similar situations had to hand in their card.
If a similar situation comes up in the future (especially at Ojibwe) the "off'd" driver can refuse to hand in their card & continue rallying, referencing Jamie's situation (or at least put up a good fight). The rule is broken once...forever broken.
If Jamie is ever in a "questionable" rally situation in the future, we (the audience) may have a strong bias concerning the event before the evidence arrives. Guilty until proven innocent.
Women drivers have had to undergo a stigma since the days of the first Model A. I for one look at Jamie as a DRIVER, not a female driver. However, others WILL see this as special dispensation due to her gender. I don't believe that is true but perception is reality.
If any competitor is treated special it is often assumed the rest of the field is treated unfairly. Just because I was not directly affected by what happened, does not mean I (or anyone else) should ignore it. If something broke, let's do our best to fix it now, before it spills over into other rallies.
I believe Bruce had mentioned something about no record of assistance by sweep. Well, now it sounds like there was. No freakin' wonder the conspiracy hounds have a field day with this kind of s**t!
<intensely sarcastic mode on> Who else is getting "special" assistance by Sweep? Not a lot of witnesses out in the woods! Who lied? Where will the cover up end?? Trust No One! <intensely sarcastic mode off>
After all is said and done, it doesn't really matter what happened 'cause everyone's already made up their mind.
>The question was asked in another part of this forum,
>and remains un answered. So subiegal how did you get out of
Don't we have better things to discuss? Who cares. She got to finish, and deserves it.
Very few events have this rule where if you get sweep help you get a DNF. I got stuck in the ORV Park Mudbowl Transit in 98. I got pulled out or I would have been there forever.
Why don't we continue the discussion about how few National events there will be next year. For a 2wd guy it looks like 7. With two of the events in my backyard, might have to bring the Acura out to Sno*Drift and go from there.
She got a tug backwards from sweep. She thought would be a DNF at that point for sure because of the supps. She asked them, "So am I done or what?" They told her to keep going. She finished the stage and turned in her timecard and the finish control gave her a time for the stage (a really looonnnggg one!) and told her to keep going. She didn't even bat her eyelashes or flip her hair or anything.
So what would you do in that situation? Yes! KEEP GOING!!
If anyone has a problem with this situation they should take it up with the organizers. Jamie didn't ask for any special treatment.
I talked to a few competitors that got stuck and accepted assistance from sweep that had their time cards taken away on the spot. In some cases I heard the officials were quite rude about it, too. No opportunity to even continue running for fun or practice.
I have heavy criticsm for this policy that the Ojibwe organizers apply. Their justification is that it is unfair to the top half of the field to be able to continue after accepting assistance from sweep. I find this logic to be flawed. If you start in the top half of the field and go off you have a lot more opportunities to convince another competitor to stop and give you a tow. Let's say possibly 40 or 50 cars. If you start near the back you might have less than 10 cars behind you and most of those would be 2wd cars, which in Jamie's case wouldn't have been able to pull her out anyway. In any case, if you have to get pulled out by sweep no matter what road position you are you've already lost so much time you're essentially out of the competition anyway. Just salvage a finish and maybe a few points if you're lucky. Jamie started in the back third of the field and still almost got time barred and that was on just a little tiny stage. If it was on a long stage quite likely she would have been OTL by the time sweep got to her.
Also it's the drivers at the back of the pack that need the most practice and experience so telling them that they cannot continue beyond that point even if they are DNF and just running for fun is not cool. Another consideration is that the drivers in the last half of the field are usually the ones that have to scrape the hardest to come up with the money to travel to and contest the event. If you tow 2000 miles and then get stuck on the first stage and they tell you you are DNF and cannot run any more stages because sweep pulled you out, well.... that's just not very good PR for the event. I'd be ticked off. I'd still want to do what I towed half way across the country for, run some fun roads! Even if I'm not among the finishers.
Another screwy thing they do there is not allow "Pro" teams who DNF the first day enter the Club rally the second day. I'm talking about even the lower seeded drivers that would normally be allowed to compete in a ClubRally. I know of at least 6 "Pro"Rally teams that DNF'd the first day that wanted to enter the ClubRally on Saturday just to salvage something of the weekend (and the long tow) and to run for fun. Apparently the organizers justification for turning away these added entry fees was because they didn't want these added out of Division interlopers messing up their Divisional championship points or something. Maybe that's not right but that's what was explained to me. That also doesn't make any sense because you could enter one or both ClubRallies at the start of the event no matter what Division you were from. If they don't want out of Division competitors taking points away from the locals then all they have to do is not score them in the championship. In the NW we've always allowed National (er, I mean "Pro" ) competitors who DNF the first day enter the Club event the second day, even if they hadn't entered before the event. It means more revenue for the organizers and it allows the competitor a chance to still get some miles in on the roads they towed across the country to run on, even if they did DNF the main event they came for.
Don't get me wrong, I think Ojibwe is a great event with great roads and great organizattion. I'm not trying to rag on them, these are just a couple of quirks I don't agree with.
Hey, That is perfectly fine. If Jamie was technically DQ'd and was allowed to continue rallying for seat time, that is a great thing . I wish they did that in all the rallies. That way you would not feel that you towed your car thousands of miles for nothing. HOWEVER, to accept official position, trophies, moneys, parting gifts, etc. is wrong if you are taking that away from someone who really deserves it. Someone who ran the rally fair and square. I myself could not accept a trophy that way, or boast about how good a rally I ran. I dont blame the organizers because it is possible that they did not know. And if the other competitors did not mind, especially the one that came third in class or lost podium, then that is their prerogative. I know that rallying is not perfect. I just like to hear every once in a while that a competitor helped another, or that a competitor voluntarily refused a trophy that he or she did not win fair and square. That is how you gain respect and admiration, not how good you are because you got away with it.
Car # 151
This is the part I edited:
With respect to towing by sweep. I personally think that help by sweep is an assistance that should be provided equally and should not dq'd a team. Especially to the back of the pack since they are running on road conditions that are not the same as for the front teams due to road deterioration. Therefore, that assistance may go to even out the odds a little. If you are a front running team, and you go off somewhere, you will be towed out. You will have to wait until sweep comes by which can be 1 hour or more,depending on the rally, while a rookie team running in the back of the pack might just have to wait a couple of minutes or so if they go off. Yes, the front running team could be time-barred, but they will ALL have a chance to continue rallying. Would this concept raise entry fees? NO. Would it create more organizing problems? Most likely, NO. Therefore, why not adopt it?
Yah, Jamie stole a podium position from the five entries in production.
At an autocross you wouldn't get a trophy for second with so few entries. So who did she beat by getting to the finish over an hour later than the winner? Looks like someone else that was limping along and the two that broke. WHOHOOO! Second Last! YAAAAAAAH! B.F.Deal.
If a factory team has to cross a double yellow to make a pass on a transit, they'll disqualify themselves on the spot and the tooth fairy makes house calls.
That muck she got stuck in was on a meaningless stage that caused too many DNFs as it was.
I've talked with old-timers that sold their grandma out on TSDs with protests and skullduggery. Rally may be noble in your area but in the NE it is Every Man (girl) For Himself. Tires are hidden in the woods and service crews pop up out of nowhere. I wish I knew 10% of the stuff that goes on so I could learn something.
In reality this has nothing to do with Jamie, it just happened to be her. I would have done exactly the same thing in that situation. It is not her job to apply the rules, just follow them as she is directed by race officials, which it sounds like she did. If they said I could go and did not take my card I'd kept going and not DQ'd myself either, its not my job to DQ myself.
The problem, and it seems to be cronic, is inconsistant application of the stated rules. Does this really shock anyone?
OK, this is stupid.
The factors of this incident are:
The organizers did not properly train this sweep crew, they didn't pull her time card.
The competitors didn't protest the help from sweep at the proper time before scores were finalized, shame on them if they thought she received help.
I agree with DC that this rule sucks and that it is one of the perks of running in the back of the pack.
Perfect rally drivers 'demanding' the perfect rally???
I like Zimmer's tone best of all the posts made in this thread thus far. OFPR 2002 is a done deal, the results are FINAL, most of the folks who are belaboring this situation were no-shows at the event or have never run in the class, and no one at the event chose to protest the Production results despite the fact there was discussion before the event concluded and ample opportunity to raise the issue when something could have been done about it. At the final ranch service Jamie made a point of looking me up and asking, directly, what she should do. I, like others, said, "If you have your time card, keep running" and I'm still comfortable with the advice I shared.
- The trophy Jamie's seen clutching in the awards ceremonies pictures is for her WELL-deserved ClubRally win Friday.
- With just five Prod entries, there were no ProRally trophies for 2nd place or lower.
- There was no prize fund of which I am aware.
- As Doug Shepherd mentioned in another thread, the ranch stage was more a test of driver intelligence (experience?) than one of car preparation, speed or daring-do. It was yet another example of a stage where there's plenty to lose for little possible gain. Jamie didn't break her car trying to outrun anyone, she wasn't showing off, she wasn't being pressured from behind, she simply made a choice to turn left when she knew she was in trouble in deep sand. She now knows that angling right there puts you on reasonably undisturbed grassland that allows puny 2WD Prod cars (even heavy ones) to scamper up the slope (I believe her second pass was MUCH less eventful).
- So far as I'm concerned, there's a BIG difference between getting stuck in a known, largely unavoidable hazard of the rally that's part of the event to give something back to the local community and finding oneself mired and unmoving on a stage where the team risked more than they should have.
So far as who was "damaged" at the time an apparently empathetic call to NOT collect her time card was made is concerned (and several people had the chance to demand she surrender it), there were just two: Jeff Field (who was not entered but may now find his second-place standing in the season points at risk if he really is done for the season) and me (see *Details below). Holding a half-hour lead in class and knowing in my heart there was a real chance the PRB would not grant my request, there was no way in hell I was going to open myself to the name-calling and ridicule which I would have deserved had I done something as petty and unsportsmanlike as insisting the 'letter of the rules' be adhered to in that peculiar situation.
So, in the long and short of it, I'm glad things worked out as they did. I'd rather have the situation at hand rather than argue about an exclusion caused by a minor error in driver judgment on a "display" stage. Such a decision surely would have embittered more people than the current one and may have even risked alienating a group of our west coast rally family.
There, I said it. Flame away - I have three Nomex suits at hand ...
After Maine and before the PRB met in Bemidji I sent a request to have my Car Zero duty at Cherokee Trails 2002 counted as one of the five 'entered and participated' credits I needed to be listed in the 2002 championship results. I was asking for no points, just the opportunity to run Ojibwe, Wild West and LSPR and take a shot at matching last year's Donison Cup podium finish. In a split vote the PRB chose to deny my request, an outcome I see as ultimately fair since granting the request could have been looked on as blind-siding Jeff Field. My guess is he figured I was out of the championship when I was a no-show in Maine. The PRB's decision ended my negotiating and finagling a way to run Wild West which, in the long run, is something of a relief.
For whatever it's worth, I'll be following up with the PRB to include such an "entered and participated" option for the 2003 championship (which will shadow the precedent set in ClubRally where organizing committee members are awarded points toward their Divisional Championships). So all may not be lost if you simply do not have the funds to compete in five rallies next season. If you like the idea, join me in sending such a request to the PRB, I need some support to see it through.
>The competitors didn't protest the help from sweep at the
>proper time before scores were finalized, shame on them if
>they thought she received help.
So you'd add regulations that would force me to protest? Gimme a break. The reason I'm in stage rallying is thanks to consecutive weekends attending a mid-70s Big Bend Bash in Terligua, TX and then working for a checkpoint crew at the Five Tribes National TSD Rally in Tulsa. Everyone was happy, freindly, approachable and warm in southwest Texas while my keenest memory of national TSDers was enduring Curt Rich and Psam Somebody-er-other elevate themselves from also-rans to first in class by filing a series of protests one after another. It left me feeling like a whole lot of us had spent tons of time, effort, gas, and money so a few prima donas could decide the results by shuffling paper. Why had we taken to the roads at all?
I've been racing in one form or another since 1968 and have yet to file a protest or be involved with being protested because I have yet to see a situation so grievous that it required such action. That fits with my experience at OFPR this year too.
RE: Perfect rally drivers 'demanding' the perfect rally???
I disagree with you with your comment about "perfect drivers 'demanding' the perfect rally. it is not about running a "perfect" rally or being a "perfect" competitor, is about being fair when applying rules and being ethical when being a competitor.
If a competitor gets DQ by doing something that another competitor did and got away with it, then obviously there was either an oversight or an unfair enforcement of the rules. In either case, if a competitor is aware of such unfairness, I would think that competitor (regardless of who the competitor is) should do something to correct the impropriety, regardless of the outcome of such step. It its just the right thing to do. Let alone the fact that rules where meant to be followed otherwise why have them?
True, the event is over. Dead issue as far as the event is concerned. If someone was wronged, too bad? Well, tell that to Dave Kean. I think it is up to us to try to maintain our integrity as competitors and avoid things like this from happening. I also know that whether it is an illegal gear in the transmission, or passing on a double yellow line or getting illegal service, it is up to us to try to compete as ethically as possible for the sake of the sport.
Car # 151
P.S. I think it is great how we can all agree to disagree on an issue and still get along, right Mike? Opinions are like bellybuttons...everybody has one. Some are nice some... some not so nice, but we are all entitled to them.
There is more to this than a little yellow subaru... You may not care
>True, the event is over. Dead issue as far as the event is
>concerned. If someone was wronged, too bad? Well, tell that
>to Dave Kean
I do not feel I we were wronged, we knew what the rules were and they were applied to us. I'm not going to criticize Jamie and Tina for taking the break given too them, I, and everyone else here would have done exactly the same thing and carried on.
That is my only issue - the rules were very clear and they were not applied equally. It was just one of those things that happens, we are all familiar enough with the phrase "that's rallying".
Bill would have liked to continue just to get experience on his first run with 4WD. We were way out of contention after a multitude of car issues on Friday night and another 40 minutes on a berm would not have helped our position, but were running Saturday to get time in the car and get used to working with each other.
In the bigger picture, I got into a discussion after last weekend with a friend in the UK. Pro-rally is starting to be taken seriously there and get some more media coverage (I know most of you probably do not care), John Lloyd coming to play is just one example of this.
If you want this series to grow and prosper then incidents like this have to stop. They get blown out of all proportion (case in point here) and the professionalism of the series will be questioned and Pro-rally will not be taken seriously.
I'm not saying Jamie should have refused the help, I'm saying the sweep should have known and applied the rules consistency, that is all.
RE: Perfect rally drivers 'demanding' the perfect rally???
I agree with Dave Clark & Mad Mike! In the NW if you get stuck, sweep has the opportunity to pull you out and you can continue, assuming you are in front of sweep. Your penalty is the time you spent sitting on your side or on top of that stump....
A couple of years ago, I dropped all the bolts out of a ball joint in the Mazda. We put the darn thing back together just as sweep was arriving to us. They even waited a few moments for us to finish putting the wheel on and safely strapping in. We continued (albeit slow) just in front of them and into service. Another time, the wife and I hydroplaned across a lake in the middle of the road and ended up high centered on a berm. Sweep pulled us out and we continued down the stage, 22 mins later. (see video at: http://www.xprt.net/~taborj/movies/mybad.avi )
Anywho, I think that Jaime got her punishment with the stage time. Yes, there is a question of the organizers of ANY event and how they interpret the rules. Is this anything new?