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Discussion Starter #1
I post this on Canadian Forum but looking for your opinion as the issue may be same in USA.

I trully don't understand this.

Before when I was speculating, I love take the pictures and give away to competitors.
Now when committing, I don't have the opportunities and must relay on "luck" or buying.
So far Keith Morison of Morison Communication is offering the pictures in the range of $250 for a picture. Keith explain to me that he must charge this price because this is what Subaru Canada pays to him for the pictures and he can not go lower. Taking under consideration the fact that Subaru have a big budget for this year I came to conclusion that this trully sucks.

Most competitors (including our team) simply barely tight the knots in order to show up for the Rally. Is the position of Subaru Canada O.K.?

We all "feel up" the entry list in events that Subaru is sponsoring. There is no secret that our entries totally cover the cost of the every Rally. So, why Subaru Canada is preventing the teams who can not afford the services of companies like let's say Morrison Communication to charge less for the pictures that in most cases are the only leaving memory participating in the events.

How much the Rally picture should be worth anyway?

Jerry
 
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Why do you think a professional photographer should give his work away?

That is how they makes there living.

There are always plenty of people at the events taking pictures and giving them away for free (or nearly free).

For example, see [link:www.icallshotgun.com/images/2003_PFR/gallery.html|http://www.icallshotgun.com/images/2003_PFR/gallery.html] (see Topic #454 in the Photos/Videos/Requests forum).

If you want to use a professionals services, you have to be willing to pay their price.
 

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Jerry
A) $250 Canadian is very cheap for a professional photo.
B) People Like Keith and myself make our living from taking photos. We don't have other jobs to pay our bills. We have to pay travel expenses, cost of equipment, liability insurance,equipment insurance, health insurance, life's other bills and not to mention the time away from doing other paying photography work. This is a business, just like what ever it is you do, I am sure you (or the company you work for) charges appropriately for there service. I spent nearly $20,000 last year to go to all the rallies and I need to charge approprietly to make that back and be able to pay my bills. And still I give plenty of photos away to rally people (dependant on attitude)
C)Subaru Canada has nothing to do with preventing teams from getting photos for cheap. They have no control over what photgraphers charge. It would not be fair to charge them fair market value then turn around and give you a photo for nothing. I am sure you would then turn around and give it to your sponsor (Toyota?) who will then use it in an ad and make money on it. If you don't want to pay for a quality photo then feel free to get a photo from someone else. You get what you pay for.
D) It is completely out of line for you to post this (twice!) and publicly slander Mr. Morrison like you did. If you had a problem with the price you should have contacted him, not denounce him on an open forum!

You owe him an apology

Good luck getting photos. You won't be getting the great shot I got of you this weekend!
 

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$250 a picture?! Thats insane. I can't see pictures being sold for more than $30 to $50. I'm a vendor at the Import show in Carlisle PA every year and this year my sister was selling her auto related photo's for $15 a piece. Of course she's also just completed her freshmen year majoring in Photography. And she doesn't have thousands of dollars invested in the latest camera equipment either.

I suppose if he sold photo's to other people for less than $250, then Subaru would say "hey, why are we paying this much when everyone else isn't?"

Nick Polimeni
www.odysseyhouseonline.com
 

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>And she doesn't have thousands of dollars
>invested in the latest camera equipment either.

The digital camera I bought last year, mostly to shoot rallying, cost $7000 US and that did not include any lenses. Heck, I could be competing instead of taking photos for that

>
>I suppose if he sold photo's to other people for less than
>$250, then Subaru would say "hey, why are we paying this
>much when everyone else isn't?"

exactly, and manufacturers use the photos for all kinds of things- Posters, ads, web, PR, magazine articles, etc., etc. they get a lot of return for the money
 

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www.christianedstrom.com
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$250 (cdn) per picture isn't insane if it allows you the commercial use of the photo in both web and print format, and for inclusion on posters and hero cards etc.

I assume that the $250 involved more than just a print, no?

If you don't want to pay $250, you don't have to; you can rely on the kindness of amateur photographers (like Nick's sister). But if you need just _that_ shot, especially in an environment like rally, $250 might well be a bargain.

This is especially true if you're using the photo to promote a team or business. Even in promoting my (no-income) co-driving, it seems unfair to me to assume that Morgan, Lorne, Pete, Keith, Tim, Warwick, etc. should bear all the costs and reap none of the benefits.

Oh, and Morgan, if you're at PPIHC and have a 17mm lens, come see me -- I've a shot I want. It may have to be on film, as I'm not sure it will be wide enough on digital.

- Christian

Bjorn Christian Edstrom
Co-Driver
 

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.
>
>Oh, and Morgan, if you're at PPIHC and have a 17mm lens,
>come see me -- I've a shot I want. It may have to be on
>film, as I'm not sure it will be wide enough on digital.


You got it! But it will cost ya;)
See you there
 

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Note: I removed the identical thread in the Canada forum since this one is getting all the responses. Please only post a thread in one forum.
 

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Slander?

I fail to see any slander towards Mr. Morrison. I guess if he is not charging $250 there may be some sort of issue. A photographer has every right to charge whatever they want for pictures, so I don't see it as an attack. What I got out of it is that Jerry is blaming Subaru of Canada for driving photo prices up. The reality for me is that I have been able to buy very nice photos for much less than $250 so I don't see a valid point.
 

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I work in the automotive design business. In any business like this, you ARE your portfolio. Many designers insure their portfolio for insane amounts and keep them in a vault...especially the originals. Within the digital realm it is easier to save a digital copy of your work, nowadays, but my point is that I expect to make more than a designer or modeller/animator fresh out of college. It is my portfolio and resume that makes this happen. Same for photogs. You wanna make the big bucks? Pay your dues, burn up LOTS of film (or cards), get yourself good equipment, learn your craft, go to the rallies early and scout your spots, plan your entire life around getting killer shots, and present your portfolio to prospective clients. If you look at the top guys in our community, they have excellent portfolios and have done just this. And I know they still aren't getting rich off of it.

Eric
 

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I didn't see it mentioned, but what exactly do you get for $250....a poster size print or a 3x5?

Just curious..as the debate might be settled there.

Tina
 

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For that price, as Christian mentioned, you're getting more than just a print...you're getting the RIGHTS to the picture. And as any professional will tell you, that's a big deal.

When a photographer takes a picture, the intellectual property rights to that image belong to the photographer, unless he/she deliberately gives them away or sells them. Unfortunately, many people believe that once the print is in their hands, thay can use it for anything they want. Not true. When you buy a print, it's for your personal use only, and may not be used for anything else - like giving to a sponsor for an ad, as Morgan suggested - unless the photographer expressly agrees.

The Internet - and scanners and other computer wizardry - have made it very difficult for a photographer to protect the rights to his/her work. It's no surprise that the rights to the best work come at a high price.

Bruce
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Mr.Morgan said"

"It is completely out of line for you to post this (twice!) and publicly slander Mr. Morrison like you did. If you had a problem with the price you should have contacted him, not denounce him on an open forum!"

I did NOT slander anybody!
Saying publicly that $250 Keith is charging should not offend anybody. Keith is a hard working person and keep in mind that he contributes to rally as well as a Rally Director of our club and sponsor of Rocky Mountain Rally. I understand that he must charge the price because that's the nature of business. I am just looking to find out the cheapest price.

On my site as a competitor I must look at the way of offsetting the cost. Parts are expensive as anything else. Besides that what would happened if we could see ONLY factory cars participating in National Rallies in North America? The funny part is that mostly they can not finish the rally?and they don't support the "poor" teams in any means. It is the rest behind "them" what keeps the Rally alive. Some are lucky like Mr. Edstrom who can have free pictures in their Factory team cars.

Jerry


As for Morgan comments on "You won't be getting the great shot I got of you this weekend?" I can only say ...Kiss my Voltage?
 

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>I didn't see it mentioned, but what exactly do you get for
>$250....a poster size print or a 3x5?

Hey Tina, I'd sell ya a bunch of poster prints for $250, but if that employer of yours wants one image for an ad campaign, then the discussions start well above $250. Pricing usually depends on how you're going to use the image.

Jim Culp
prorallypix.com
 

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Hey Jerry,
Maybe the problem is that you asked the wrong question... what do you want to use the photo for? As it has been said a few times already in this forum, for $250 you are getting a deal if you are buying the full rights to the photo. If you just want to post it on your website with credit given to Keith, than $250 certainly does seem high to me (just another club-level rally guy, not a professional photographer). if you are looking to print a half dozen to send to your sponsors as a "thank-you" gift, I would expect to pay around $250 or so...

"how much for that photo?" and "how much for a single 5x7 print of that photo" might sound the same to you and I; but to a professional photorapher, they appear to be two completely diferent questions.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I agree that "rights" to photo should cost but the big question "how much" and "to who".

As I said Keith was willing to charge less but?He can not because I understand $250 level set by Subaru.

In Europe after each Rally you have hundreds of high quality pictures posted on Internet for free. As you know we all would like to see this sport to grow and we all contribute having different budgets driving cars of different manufacturers. I never classify myself as a "Rally Driver". I love this sport in my "own true way" and would like to see this sport growing. I am helping this sport and getting so far fantastic responds as well exposing the sport to public. But?I don't have budgets like Subaru or Mitsubishi has. Having more exposure we should get more people into. Return? Better Sport, better competition and more opportunities for Morgan and the rest of paparazzi?Give us a brake and help us as we are helping you. I think this is what I want to say.

Jerry
 

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Jerry,

You have the power here.

If you don?t like the cost, don?t buy the picture!
If this picture is important enough to you then buy it!

How much would it cost you to have someone take quality pictures? It is hard to get pictures that are good enough for media purposes, but if it?s for personal use, there are lots of snap shots out there.

BTW Jerry, I am not going after you or anyone personally, just stating it how I see it.


Steven Perret
Car# 226
Driftin4 Racing
[email protected]
 

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Some people just know how to screw the community the are living, or in this case, playing in!

As for the fact that Keith Morrison charges $250 Cdn for a photo, I was at the Rocky Mountain Rally. I know for a fact that many pics of your car were taken by people on the tour bus, including your guest. Why not ask him about some pictures? If Keith can get $250 for his professional level photos from Subaru, good for him. This is how he makes his living. Do I come into your place of employment get a quote or some information and then go out and bad mouth you in the community that you work in?

As for the amount of money Subaru spends on the Canadian Rally Championship, be thankful. What do you think the championship would be like with out Subaru and Yokohama? A damn sight worse than it is now. Tell me how it would be better if Subaru took their money and spent it all on advertizing instead. For your general knowledge, the amount that Subaru is spending for Pat Richard's total program is less that Subaru USA spent to send Ramana Lagemann to New Zealand for one rally. Thay are not throwing money around freely but spending what they have wisely.

About the comment that the competitors are covering the costs for the rally, I say this; Do really understand the cost's involved in the organization of rallys? I would suspect not, as you seem to think that you are being screwed in that entry fees are high. If you think you can do it better, step up and put up, otherwise think about your comments before you post.
 
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