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Hmmmn...

Black clouds on the horizon down south. It's gonna take a whole new way of doing things for the sport to continue in the USA.

I would expect that any US competitor who is within a day or so of a Canadian event will try and run it. That's my hunch.

So it got me thinking? How many entrants can the canadian events handle?
 

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I know that this year Rocky was going to limit the number to 50 cars. At one point it look as if there was going to be 52 or 53 but ended up at 48 (I think).
 

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I'd say the most that events recently have been limiting to is about 50-60 cars. An event like Glaway cavendish this coming weekend has such a hard surface that they could likely take 100 cars no problem but other events I doubt the roads could take it...
 

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>I'd say the most that events recently have been limiting to
>is about 50-60 cars. An event like Glaway cavendish this
>coming weekend has such a hard surface that they could
>likely take 100 cars no problem but other events I doubt the
>roads could take it...

My impression is that road surfaces are not the limiting factor (in the west), and certainly more income allows for more road work. IN fact there is a road in BC that the government (owners? may have been private) wanted the rally to run on because it improved the road quality!

OUR problem is finding enough volunteers to keep a larger event going without downtime.

The other thing to consider is roads ... with a 20 or 30 car field (our regionals are starting to get to that number) you can handle a couple of turnaround stages without HUGE waits ... Also, you will want to find enough roads to allow several stages running at the same time, which brings up the other issue - volunteers.

If I remember right, there was one control crew that got maybe 1 break all day, and saw car 1 back at the start before the last car left on at least one occasion, maybe more.

I guess the point is that if we are looking at getting past 50 or 60 cars, most events will have to make adjustments - fewer repeated stages, fewer split stages (I like longer stages anyway), and fewer turn-arounds.
 

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>What if higher road use fees could be paid with the
>additional ching from more entry fees being paid?


Not relavent if the road becomes impassable...cost the same to fix that road as any other...grading is grading...the big yellow thing doesn't care how many cars have gone by...

besisdes the limit in entries usually has more to do with schedule than anything else...

you gotta have time to move workers around.
 

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Pacific Forest Rally is limited to 50 cars. That limit corresponds to the maximum number of teams that we could fit into the downtown service park. If and when there comes a need to accomodate more, there is another location that we could use.

Having made 50 the limit, the stage schedule was designed so that when stages are re-run, there is enough time to get the course closing and course opening cars through, but not so much time that the spectators get bored and leave. Again, if and when we need to accomodate 60, or 80, or 100 cars, the stage schedule can be modified accordingly.
 

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>... IN fact there is a road in BC that the
>government (owners? may have been private) wanted the rally
>to run on because it improved the road quality!

You'll see that stage on PFR again this year - a few years back, when the forest company stopped using that road, they stopped maintaining it, so the local cabin owners had to start paying the forest company to grade it each year. The first time we used it for the rally, the rally cars swept all the rocks off, and they didn't have to pay for grading that year. Now they're quite enthusiastic about the event, and will be spectating from their driveway!


>... Also, you will want to find enough roads to allow
>several stages running at the same time, which brings up the
>other issue - volunteers.

For sure, the more stages active at once (or being set up while other stages are still active) the more people you need to staff them. As long as the growth has been gradual and measured, we've been keeping up with the staffing requirements, but it's always a challenge.

> ... and fewer turn-arounds.

The only way I have seen dead-end stages work in a larger event without unduly stretching the schedule, it was with service at the end of the stage. Of course, that means getting all the service crews in first...
 

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>The only way I have seen dead-end stages work in a larger
>event without unduly stretching the schedule, it was with
>service at the end of the stage. Of course, that means
>getting all the service crews in first...

Should we then expect a tire and fule only (what ever that means) at the top of Helmer?
 

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>Should we then expect a tire and fule only (what ever that
>means) at the top of Helmer?

What makes you think the top of Helmer will be a dead-end? (snicker, snicker, snicker...)
 

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When I ran Baie, they used 2 minute windows all the time. Do all Canadian events use 2 minutes all the time? That might be one change that would have to be made. IMHO, 2 minutes was a real pain and not necessary (wet event, absolutely no dust).
 

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will the influx of american entry's jeprodize the grassroots canadian teams???

ie: taking up entry spots???

or will more american teams entering in canadian events be only a good thing for the sport???

any thoughts?
 

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>will the influx of american entries jeopardize the grassroots
>canadian teams???
>
>ie: taking up entry spots???

Well, considering there are only 12 entries at GCFR this coming weekend,
I don't think that will be an issue in Ontario for a while.

>or will more american teams entering in canadian events be
>only a good thing for the sport???

More and varied competition would be a good thing.

Adrian
 

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re: windows - 1 minute is the norm.

re: US competitors flooding the market ...
With limited entry spots to events, I could see a 'canadian' preference up to the early deadline ... IE: if we hit max before the early entry deadline then it's canadians first ... but I 'typically' wouldn't worry about that.

The problem with sudden growth is that the organising committees and events have to be prepared. Only 5 years ago, the Kananaskis regional event started only 6 cars, and we have set a maximum start list of 30 for this year, and we think it is possible to hit that number. (recce event on ice and snow, with street studs allowed)

The Rocky Mountain Rally (national) went on to the reserve list over 50 entries, then dropped after a few backed out.

In a few weeks we'll see how Pacific Forest does, but I think you should expect another great turn out and a number of entries from south of the border.

Next year shoudl be interesting ... the planning has to start now for more roads!
 

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I think it will be a good thing for everyone involved. The atmosphere is so much more relaxed up there, which is enjoyable to us down south! ;)

If we work together at the growth, hopefully it won't be a big issue.

Tina
 

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Like so many people I deal with, we worry about a problem we don't have, and ignore a problem we do have. There are now thirteen entries for this weekend's Galway-Cavendish Forest Rally. While it doesn't look like many, it is almost every available rally car and team in Ontario. The problem is not - How will we deal with 50 or 100 cars, but rather the problem is lack of teams actually participating. As an organizer and competitor, I have always considered rally a "borderless" sport. We're all in this together, and once you're in the car running down the road, it doesn't matter whether the trees are 'Murican, or Canajun'
A few US events had to turn away entries a couple of years ago. That problem has gone away for the present. If you're worried about "your" spot being taken by a "furriner", get your entry in the day after entries open, not the day before (or after) they close.
Limits on regional events are often set realistically. Challenge the organizers by entering and competing. We don't determine the winners of the event before the start, so lets not worry about too many entries when we don't have them, and are unlikely to see them any time in the future.
A US group 5 team could have entered the Galway-Cavendish Forest Rally this weekend and actually made money, or at least been revenue neutral. ($230 Cdn entry - $300 first prize). Not one team responded to the offer. Too many entries? Give me that problem.
 

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OK, here's a perspective from a team of Yankees who have been consistently "taking up local spots" in CDN events.

CARs rallies in eastern Canada now comprise upwards of 20% US teams, thanks to dearth of regional/club level events in eastern US. These teams are not your typical SCCA Pro big-budget efforts, they are just "normal" rally fanatics trying to run as many events as they can and make their dollars go a bit further.

Fact remains that these US-based teams (Zimmer/Shindle, Last Ditch Racing, Wazoo Racing, Bares/Hygate, Goss/Grenier, Siesecki/McKelvie, and a gaggle of Golfs from Team O'Neil) , are working their way up the CARS standings based on experience, chutzpah and dedication...instead of "buying their way to the top." How can this be seen as anything but contributing positively to overall quality of the CARS series?

Speaking for my own team, the main reason we race in Canada is because we feel welcomed and supported (and cared about) by organizers and competitors alike. The competition is friendly and supportive, but once you're foot-to-the-floor on a hot stage, everybody drives like hell...which is exactly how rallying should be.

I agree with Peter W...worrying about "too many cars" is not the problem...it's keeping a rally series healthy and working as a successful business model for the organizers. (A few more cars per event just helps organizers clear some more $$$ so they can do it again next year.) I believe that CARS and its regional groups are making this happen in a Big Way (esp w/strong feeder series like Coupe de Quebec, OPRC, etc) and that's exactly what's missing from US rallying.

I'd encourage US competitors to give CDN racing a good try (more than just one event) and especialy invite US organizers and sanctioning-body types to come up and check things out.

Might be some good cross-border pollination ya know...!!

a bientot,

Dave G
Co-Pilote
Last Ditch Racing

PS--I'd be running my own well-used aspro Scooby RS at GCFR, but it's down with a variety of mechanical woes.

"...Embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."
 
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