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Dirt surfer
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1,367 Posts
RE: How many HELPERS will it take?

>
>
>Use some F'ing common sense! If you are in a populated
>area... SLOW DOWN! >
>There appears to be a tendency by many these days to blame
>organizers by whining about: "There isn't enough info in the
>notes.", "There weren't enough workers.", There wasn't enough
>crowd control." There isn't this... there isn't that....
>blah, blah, blah..
>
>
>Use some self-control, use your brains, use compassion, and
>above all.... disregard anyone who tells you that there is no
>mother with stroller just over that blind crest (even out in
>the boonies) you are about to go over at 100mph.
>
>
>
>
It's so easy to sit on the sidelines and snipe. It's a whole lot harder to actually get out there and put together an event and make it happen without the "certain catastrophe" that people see around every corner. Kudos to Ivan and crew for pulling it off. Double kudos to the marshals and stewards and course cars and timing folks and med people and local/state police WHO ACTUALLY HELPED instead of staying home waiting for some apocalyptic event and then pointing the "told you so" finger. Triple kudos to the pilotes and copilotes who drove so well throughout a hard-fought and difficult event in adverse weather on unfamiliar surfaces.

The simple fact is, the racers at Rally NY avoided the naysayers' "certain catastrophe" scenarios by doing basically just what Jens is advocating....driving with their brains instead of their gonads.

yes, there were issues with missing and/or extra chicanes. the drivers dealt with them. contrary to popular opinion, rally drivers are actually rather skilled at avoiding unexpected obstacles.

yes, there could have been more workers. the drivers dealt with that by managing to stay on the road (more or less). there were a handful of small offs, and the one big off involved a jumping Evo that cleverly landed in a frog pond instead of somebody's front yard.

yes, there were issues with locals disregarding marshal's direct instructions and driving on hot stage roads. we were one of the course opening cars and had 2 encounters with people on closed stage roads, so we stopped and dealt with them (that's what course cars DO, ya know) Out on the stages, the drivers dealt with civilians on course and ...SLOWED DOWN to miss the problems.

yes, some of the roads were insanely fast. chicanes helped, as did the rain, mud and sand on the corners. this issue is best addressed by choosing twistier stage roads. some of the stage roads (like the shorter sections in Liberty) were simply fantastic. As one Irish driver put it, "aye, now THAT was a proper tarmac stage!"

yes, there were organizational issues. these would be relieved if more people came to help make the races happen smoothly and professionally instead of lurking online to crow about all the problems.

All in all, Rally NY was awesome. There is considerable potential to make it MUCH better if the US rally community is willing to stop sniping and start helping.

Dave G
Car 0, RNY 06


"...Embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."
 

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Why don't you try posting something productive rather than being so negative?
I am sorry it seems this one rally didn't go so well and shoud have its ventue changed. But there are an aweful lot of other rallys in the US and these sort of issues don't come up. Although yes, the US has a high population, it IS a very large county with very sparcely populated areas that can safely be rallied on and have supportive residents.
Seriously man, stop being part of the problem and start being part of the solution, as you very clearly do care about rally. Please get it through your head that its never going to be like it was in the "good old days", it will be differnet but still can be a lot of fun.

Just seeing your posts these days gives me a headache. Why would you make another thread when the is a perfectly constuctive one going on already??
 

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RE: How many HELPERS will it take?

>It's so easy to sit on the sidelines and snipe. ....

>...Kudos to Ivan and crew for pulling it off.


1. I am NOT aiming at organizers. I am aiming at drivers!

2. My comments relate to ANY rally in the U.S., and are not specific to RNY. That is why I started a separate thread!
 

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>Why don't you try posting something productive rather than
>being so negative?

Reality isn't as pretty as looking at the world through a happy mist.


>Just seeing your posts these days gives me a headache.

If I bother you so much, don't read my posts!!! Or, take an aspirin.

>Why would you make another thread when the is a perfectly
>constuctive one going on already??

I created a separate thread, because my comments are unrelated to any specific rally.... and should not be construed as being so.
 

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RE: How many HELPERS will it take?

Are there enough workers to man AND ENFORCE every driveway on those residential (as Alex so wisely said) stages? And Jens, in this case I disagree. Your rant should be aimed at organizers and promoters that allow this to happen. Racers are racers and they're not going to slow down, at least not to what it takes to not involve the stoller or mini van just over the crest or around the blind curve.
 

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Retired Rally Photographer
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>Rather than reply to any particular post in the RNY beef
>thread, I'm staring my own thread...<snip>...win when he/she >sentences you to prison for manslaughter.

If you would show up and help, you could be the one who keeps that local from entering the hot stage to make it safer.

If you would show up and help, you could be the one who is at the additional chicane to slow the cars even more to make it safer.

If you would show up and help, you could be the one who [insert task here] to make it safer.

I would take your posts a lot more seriously if you were putting forth effort and not hiding behind a keyboard criticizing what everyone is doing.

Pete
 

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>I created a separate thread, because my comments are unrelated
>to any specific rally.... and should not be construed as being
>so.
>
But at the risk of pissing off many people. I'll be honest. Jens, what other rally in the US (or Canada) has had this much potential for tragedy? The number of full time occupied residents/houses per stage mile has got to be significantly higher than any other rally in this country.
 

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straight at T
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2,472 Posts
>>I created a separate thread, because my comments are
>unrelated
>>to any specific rally.... and should not be construed as
>being
>>so.
>>
>But at the risk of pissing off many people. I'll be honest.
>Jens, what other rally in the US (or Canada) has had this much
>potential for tragedy? The number of full time occupied
>residents/houses per stage mile has got to be significantly
>higher than any other rally in this country.

The old (pre-2000) Charlevoix ran stages through the middle of towns (Ste. Irene had to be seen to be believed!). The local mentality allowed this to happen effectively, if not necessarily safely by current standards. The tarmac stages (it was a mixed surface event with short tarmac stages and long gravel ones) were, for the most part, quite twisty and technical.

The Quebec rally also ran stages in/through towns, including spectator stages in the middle of the city. Again, the meat of the rally was on less populated roads.

Adrian
 

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don't cut
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In the "good old days" some of the drivers went flat out over a crest if they thought the road went straight. Reading the road was a skill needed then. Today with notes, maybe more of the drivers are going flat out over a crest if the notes tell them the road goes straight. As Jens is trying to point out, the notes don't tell you the car on the road ahead of you picked the other side of the crest to land sideways and block the road.

In the "good old days" drivers crashed by mis-reading the road. Woolf and Whittaker were killed partly because they went flat over a crest and did not see the vehicle on the other side.

The point is that to win then, you had to go flat over the crests. To win today, you still have to do that. Then, there were only a few drivers able to take the chances to win. Same today. The only difference is that today, a few more drivers might be going slightly faster because of the notes.
 

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>I would take your posts a lot more seriously if you were
>putting forth effort and not hiding behind a keyboard
>criticizing what everyone is doing.
>
>Pete

I don't care if you take my posts seriously or not. You have the option to not read my posts; take it.

As for not attending rallies: My reasons are private. Take that to mean what you want. Don't make assumptions regarding my reasons or intentions.

The cautions I expressed are directed at drivers; no one else!
 

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All this chat is fine, but does the US have a Rallies Committee, who look at the issues of each event and issue directives for future events! Sounds like there is nobody at the wheel here?
 

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>But at the risk of pissing off many people. I'll be honest.
>Jens, what other rally in the US (or Canada) has had this much
>potential for tragedy? The number of full time occupied
>residents/houses per stage mile has got to be significantly
>higher than any other rally in this country.


Reading the other threads I get the impression there might be some organizational issues, but that is NOT the point of my post and I wasn't there so I don't want to comment about RNY.

My point is: whatever happens at any rally rest squarely at the foot of drivers. If an organizer puts on an uninsured, unsanctioned, un-worker'd rally in the middle of Manhattan it is ultimately up to the drivers to decide if they will enter the event, will slow down, will not risk hitting pedestrians, etc.

Drivers (not co-drivers, not crew, not their mothers) need to take responsibility for their actions regardless of the conditions presented to them.
 

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jens, you fail to realise the speed these cars are going, and when at this speed, just adding another chicane is not that good for the driver's confidence in how the event is happening.
Please wake up and be real!
 

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>jens, you fail to realise the speed these cars are going, and
>when at this speed, just adding another chicane is not that
>good for the driver's confidence in how the event is
>happening.
>Please wake up and be real!


From the multitude of posts regarding the situation at RNY, I don't think I'm failing to realize much. However, I choose not to comment on RNY and rather direct my comments to those who should take the ultimate responsibility for what happens at ANY rally... DRIVERS.
 

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jens, let me explain something, the drivers' main duty is to drive as quickly and safe as possible from start to finish of a CLOSED road. Now, if the organiser cannot provide a proper enviroment to do this and will not consider the opinions of the drivers, how in the hell do you expect things to be any different!
 

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codriveur
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1,385 Posts
>>Rather than reply to any particular post in the RNY beef
>>thread, I'm staring my own thread...<snip>...win when he/she
>>sentences you to prison for manslaughter.
>
>If you would show up and help, you could be the one who keeps
>that local from entering the hot stage to make it safer.
>
>If you would show up and help, you could be the one who is at
>the additional chicane to slow the cars even more to make it
>safer.
>
>If you would show up and help, you could be the one who
>[insert task here] to make it safer.
>
>I would take your posts a lot more seriously if you were
>putting forth effort and not hiding behind a keyboard
>criticizing what everyone is doing.
>
>Pete

Pete is exactly correct, and this has nothing to do with Jens (no matter how much you want it to) It is a high percentage of "KNOWLEDGEABLE SPECTATORS" that are doing the carping about the event. Jose et al, you love rally so much huh? ...and saw so many problems? You could have jumped in @ anytime by signing a waiver, approaching a marshal and asking to help.

I have to add This was the best RNY for rolling up to a start control and actually starting shortly thereafter. Sat. Morning was like clockwork for the Narrowsburg 6 stages. The rest where also on time. The people who did work did a great job.

And the only suggestion I have for Ivan is he should maybe delegate to some of the good people he has and trust them. He works too hard under constant pressure during the event. Look @ JB and Ted Goddard during Maine. Even when it's hectic they seem relaxed.

One more thing God bless Olga, she was everywhere, with a smile from Wendsday/ Nicky Grist until Sat. night.

Bernie
 

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>I have to add This was the best RNY for rolling up to a start
>control and actually starting shortly thereafter.

But, were the stages safe? Clear? Apparently not! Starting on time by trading off safety is not a good idea.

>The people who did work did a great job.

Agreed. The always do. The problem is that there weren't enough of them. The ambitions of Ivan outweigh his ability to delegate responsibiilty and get things done.
 

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straight at T
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RE: Sanctioning bodies etc.

>All this chat is fine, but does the US have a Rallies
>Committee, who look at the issues of each event and issue
>directives for future events! Sounds like there is nobody at
>the wheel here?

The US doesn't have an active ASN (since ACCUS is effectively a 'clearing house' for the independent race sanctioning bodies), so there is no single central authority that exerts control. The big racing sanctioning bodies effectively go their own way, and rally is in the same boat. With two sanctioning bodies there are two (and, one might argue, possibly more) directions that the sport is going.

There is nobody at the overall helm, because there is no overall helm.

In contrast, CARS, the Canadian rally sanctioning body, is answerable to ASN Canada FIA.

Adrian
 
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