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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
To attain Seed 4, you have to finish in the top half of all finishers at a ProRally.

At Cherokee Trails there were 39 finishers. So you would have had to finish 19th or higher to be in the top half. The first 19 finishers were ALL 4wd Turbo cars...

Conclusion? It is getting incredibly difficult for a non 4wd Turbo car to attain seed 4, and they have to finish in the top half twice to get seed 3.

Seed 2? You have to have at least one 7th overall finish. 2wd cars of any kind finishing in the top 10 is going to be incredibly rare.

Take the Zimmer/Shindle team that was so kind as to give us Video of them racing at Cherokee. In 1999 and before that kind of drive would have been top 5 at pretty much any ProRally. And a win if the conditions were right.

Higher Entry fee for Cherokee Trails & Oregon Trail hasn't slowed down the entries. 96 for Cherokee & 73 at last count for OT.

We clearly have reached the point where it won't be very long before ProRally's are exclusively for the Manufacturers or those that are very rich. The little guy in his 2wd car will have a difficult time being included in the top 25 results if we get another 30-40 4wd turbo cars. This is the biggest British invasion since the Beetles...

So we need to build up ClubRally so most of us will still have a place to play.
 

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Trevor,
Zimmer's car is non turbo and finished 17th but your point is well taken.
In the NEDiv even out ClubRallys are chocked full of Evos, WRXs and other 4WD turbos making finishing in the top 50% of a ClubRally difficult for most 2 wheel drive cars.
There are several top10 Gr2 & Gr5 driver's out there. Either build a car like Hurst's Mustang or Otake's Escort and drive it like they do or join the ranks of the turbo 4WD crowd yourself. You've got to pay to play with the big boys.

Commander Salamander
 

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SCCA has a Site Acquisition Package that has much of what you want. Call the Performance Rally Department and they'll send it to you.

Bruce
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
> Zimmer's car is non turbo and finished 17th but your point
>is well taken.
Another 75 horsepower and we might be talking top 10.

It comes down to this I think: Where are we going to get more organisers? The amount of time is staggering to put on an event. If it was easy, everyone would do it. Obviously the biggest hurdle for any event is Roads and Road permission.

When we have forest service worrying more about the "possibility" of endangered WEEDS, then we have a serious problem. Its like the whole spotted owl problem in the NW in the 90's. I say if the owl isn't smart enough to move to a different forest, then it doesn't deserve to live... (PETA alert and Sierra group alert...)

Quite a bit of the forest problem is the possibility of causing problems in watersheds. Quite a few of the rivers in forests drain into the water that the nearby cities use. We do occasionally get a car in the drink. I know that happened at Oregon Trail last year.

How do we get new organisers and how do we compensate them for their time so they don't burn out? If the country were divided into 6 areas and every area had a person able to Organize rally's as their full time job, that would make an immense difference. But the money to do this has to come from somewhere. The competitors are already seeing entry fees rise quickly so they aren't a reasonable source.

I don't have all the answers, but its obvious the sport is growing at a massive rate and things are going to have to be resolved in the next couple of years. We can't have 200 car fields at Every ProRally, but some events will soon have that many cars that will want to run in them. And if we don't consider 2wd in the future, pretty soon there won't be anymore of them because they won't be able to achieve seed three and guarantee themself a starting position. If enough cars enter, then even seed 3 won't be a guarantee. Then seed 2...
 

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<p>Trevor,</p>
<p>Thanks for the kind words.</p>
<p>Yes, our car is a non-turbo and in-fact is just a home-built stock 2001 2.5RS under a '93 body. It is done as cheap as humanly possible putting the money where I think it counts. It is reliable and tough as nails. One thing I keep repeating to others (and myself) is that money and power just helps you hit the trees harder but as we saw at 100AW and CT is that if you toss 20 EVOs at an event, a couple are gonna stick and at CT, 9 finishing factory cars push everyone down a few slots too.</p>
<p>The professional crews are responsible for getting many cars that should have DNF'd back out there and that has contributed too.</p>
<p>------- </p>
<p>After hearing Bob Varsha open each segment with, "and now for the best drivers in the world" before each rally report, I started thinking that instead of starting up another road racing project, that rally would be the place to be. From what I've seen in the past year (my first in rally) I'm not the only convert and more of us are coming to rally with much more money than I have and they have already been desensitized to costs by running expensive cars, run by expensive prep shops in expensive series where in comparison, rally seems almost free. The one good thing is the semis and motor homes will be stuck in the mud and (hopefully) roll down the hills and burn.</p>
<p>Things WILL get worse for the underfunded and I'm just happy to have gotten in some events in the "good old days".</p>

________
buy vaporizers
 

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Seeding is clearly a problem that is going to need to be addressed in the near future. On the one hand you have safety issues regarding road position that can't be ignored, and on the other we face the possiblity of rally fields being made up entirely of 4wd turbo cars.

We caught Leslie Suddard's Focus in less than 4 miles at CT this year. Now Leslie is no slouch, and the Focus is well prepped, but it just wasn't any match for the Evo on those tight slippy roads. I should have been in front of her, and raising my seed would ensure that. But on the other hand, just becuz I bucked up for a faster car shouldn't give me preference when entering a race. A rally without prodution and G2/5 cars like Leslie's Focus would suck. The cars are fun to watch, and showcase the variety of the sport.

I dunno, maybe we should go to a two number seeding system, one for absolute speed on the stage that could be used to set start orders, and one based on experience, history, championship status, ?,?,? to determine the entry list. Just an idea, so if someone can think of something better, let's hear it. This would probably shoot me in the foot, but if it makes the sport better in the long run, so be it.

Of course, more Club rallies would solve all this, but since I haven't volunteered to start one yet, I'm not gonna shoot my mouth off.


Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 

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>
>

>We clearly have reached the point where it won't be very
>long before ProRally's are exclusively for the Manufacturers
>or those that are very rich. The little guy in his 2wd car
>will have a difficult time being included in the top 25
>results if we get another 30-40 4wd turbo cars. This is the
>biggest British invasion since the Beetles...
>
>
It's "Beatles", named after "The Crickets" Of Buddy Holly fame!

Yes Trevor, club as always is the place to be. However the rising entry costs are rediculous and have no place in a growing sport.
Since all the "EVO's" are illegal here unless run under foreign lic. plates why are they being allowed to run? I personally like them but a rule is a rule is it not, or have the rules changed again, where is my watch?
The idea of "Pro Rally" is a manufacturer sport. Therefore I would say that SCCA's plan is working perfectly, wouldn't you? Unfortunatly the rest of us are hung out to dry by the people we pay for our lic..
 

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Trevor,

Over the past couple of years it has certainly gotten harder to place in the top half (especially on the west coast because not many amateurs enter the West Coast Pro events). It is still very possible in a 2wd car though. Last year I entered two non-west-coast ProRallies (STPR and Ojibwe) and finished in the upper half both times - barely. Better drivers in modified 2WD cars (White, Hurst, Otake, Havas)are still able to do it easily.

It's not clear to me that the current seeding system is flawed. It takes some speed, persistence, and perhaps luck to get the results to move up the seed list quickly, but it's certainly possible for someone willing to do what it takes.

We are all happy to see that there are now three or four real pros competing in the US, but I certainly hope you aren't gleeful about seeing many independent teams effectively eliminated from the national series. Those who benefit from excluding others don't deserve to win anything anyway.

Dave Hintz
Car # 207
 

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>At Cherokee Trails there were 39 finishers. So you would
>have had to finish 19th or higher to be in the top half. The
>first 19 finishers were ALL 4wd Turbo cars...


So basically what you are saying is, the AWD turbo cars can beat old 2WD cars so easily that the 20 yr rule aimed at eliminating them because they dont present the right "image" was needless, stupid, and redundant?
 

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>Trevor,
>
>Over the past couple of years it has certainly gotten harder
>to place in the top half (especially on the west coast
>because not many amateurs enter the West Coast Pro events).
>It is still very possible in a 2wd car though. Last year I
>entered two non-west-coast ProRallies (STPR and Ojibwe) and
>finished in the upper half both times - barely. Better

>We are all happy to see that there are now three or four
>real pros competing in the US, but I certainly hope you
>aren't gleeful about seeing many independent teams
>effectively eliminated from the national series. Those who
>benefit from excluding others don't deserve to win anything
>anyway.
>
>Dave Hintz
>Car # 207

Very well put Dave.
 

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>
>We caught Leslie Suddard's Focus in less than 4 miles at CT
>this year. Now Leslie is no slouch, and the Focus is well
>prepped, but it just wasn't any match for the Evo on those
>tight slippy roads. I should have been in front of her, and
>raising my seed would ensure that. But on the other hand,
>just becuz I bucked up for a faster car shouldn't give me
>preference when entering a race. A rally without prodution
>and G2/5 cars like Leslie's Focus would suck. The cars are
>fun to watch, and showcase the variety of the sport.
>
Now, I wmight be wrong here, but it is my understanding that the rules allow you and leslie to agree to switch places at the ATC. Someone with either a rulebook handy or a faster Inet connection than myself could look it up and confirm or refute it.

I seem to remember a particular Omni GLH losing all its front glass and then some because a lower seeded EVO caught them at Headwaters... Then again if that whole thing hadn't happened, perhaps I wouldn't have ended up getting to know Brenda... Anyway.....

jb
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
>Over the past couple of years it has certainly gotten harder
>to place in the top half (especially on the west coast
>because not many amateurs enter the West Coast Pro events).
I agree completely. And if you are having that problem in a 2wd turbo, then how are the 2wd Production cars doing.

>It is still very possible in a 2wd car though. Last year I
>entered two non-west-coast ProRallies (STPR and Ojibwe) and
>finished in the upper half both times - barely. Better
>drivers in modified 2WD cars (White, Hurst, Otake, Havas)are
>still able to do it easily.
I still agree. I was taking Cherokee Trails as a current example of where ProRally is headed. The first 2wd car had an awesome drive. But he didn't increase his seed from Seed 4. What happens at STPR if there are 90 Seed 0-3 cars? He could be denied a start.

If we don't start thinking about this now, in 3-4 years we will have another 30-40 Evo's/WRX and then what happened at Cherokee will be normal and not an exception. This takes absolutely nothing away from 2wd drivers, but 4wd traction with equal drivers equates to a better finish for the 4wd.

>It's not clear to me that the current seeding system is
>flawed. It takes some speed, persistence, and perhaps luck
>to get the results to move up the seed list quickly, but
>it's certainly possible for someone willing to do what it
>takes.
As far as starting order, I agree again. The sport is safer if competitors are placed from fastest to not as fast... No passing on stages is the goal. And yes, currently the good 2wd drivers are going to be able to get to seed 3 and higher, but in a couple of years? Do we only want the 4-5 best 2wd drivers to be the only 2wd competitors? Do you want to only have one 2wd class? If that happens, I predict that SCCA will keep 2wd Production. That is the more marketable class, although Group 2 is shaping up to be a great battle this year.

>We are all happy to see that there are now three or four
>real pros competing in the US, but I certainly hope you
>aren't gleeful about seeing many independent teams
>effectively eliminated from the national series.

I don't see where it looked like I was gleeful. I'm not at all. The British invasion comment was intended to be funny. If it wasn't, then I'll go back to my "telling jokes for dummies" book.

I'm finally seeing that we have a problem for 2wd cars in the near future. Since I'm building one that in the end will be more expensive than just having an Evo shipped in, I want to make sure that ALL 2wd cars aren't eventually eliminated from ProRally. If fields are limited because 2wd traction can't keep up with GroupN/Open 4wd's, then eventually you will only have the 3-4 best 2wd drivers running in ProRally. And how much fun would that be if you were the only car in your class?

>Those who
>benefit from excluding others don't deserve to win anything
>anyway.
I agree. More competition is better. I've never said otherwise.

The Performance Rallying problem we have right now is that the growth of competitors is NOT being matched by the growth of Organizers. This will have to be dealt with and that was my main intention of starting this topic. I don't want anyone excluded from any event, but if we have 80 spots open and 200 entries, something has to give and the current rule book way to handle this is to eliminate seed 4 and lower entries.

If the sport keeps growing at the current rate, 2wd will go away in 5 years at the ProRally level. My prediction. Although I guarantee SCCA won't let that happen, but there will certainly be a consolidation of 2wd classes.

Just look at the Rally Racing News statistics and see how many Open/Group N cars are running 5 or more ProRally events now compared to 1998.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
>>At Cherokee Trails there were 39 finishers. So you would
>>have had to finish 19th or higher to be in the top half. The
>>first 19 finishers were ALL 4wd Turbo cars...
>
>
>So basically what you are saying is, the AWD turbo cars can
>beat old 2WD cars so easily that the 20 yr rule aimed at
>eliminating them because they dont present the right "image"
>was needless, stupid, and redundant?

Sure. I can see where anyone reading what I wrote could come to that conculsion. I'll have to be more unclear in the future.
 

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Does anyone realise HOW OPEN grp2 really is ??!? Does anyone realize that Grp2 allows you to build basically 'more of a car' than an s1600, and also 'more of a car' than the hottest A7 kit cars of a few years ago ? Does anyone realize that cars like that can run with top GrpN cars in many cases ? In the case of USA (where most cars arent being driven to the max) a properly, hotly driven Grp 2 fwd car with decent prep (i.e. SIMILAR TO THE MACHINES YOU ARE COMPARING TO, your evos and WRXes) can easily (in my opinion) be in the top 10 regularly ?

This is not to say that the current 2wd drivers arent going for it, but what it is to say, is that the machinery is just lesser. It isn't the '2wd' thing, it is the machine itself. Cars like Scott Fuller's Golfs have been proven (i.e. 2nd overall FIA Asia-Pac series) to beat Grp N cars all day long. There just aren't too many hot 2Grp cars around. When I say hot, I mean hot, as in same price as the kind of cars Trevor is comparing to.

Yeah, we will always have drivers faster, behind someone slower in front. We all have to pay our dues to move up in the seeds. If you still finish in the back 50% all the time, well, that is where you should be seeded. I can't count the NUMBER of times that passing goes on (both of me, and to me), and COME ON ! Honestly, unless the drivers are f-ers it shouldn't slow you down. Ask Tim P. or Tim O. how much we slowed them down at CT when we had complete brake failure ! Ask about Maine Forest (several cars PER STAGE)

The fact of the matter is, we have people with $$ with nice cars who will start in questionable spots. Here is a nice question for you: Why doesn't the seeding use LAST YEARs results only ? The seeding isn't really broken, starting behind people is a fact of life. Not making an event cutoff because you are too slow because you couldn't afford the nice car... well, that is already happening !

-Pat
 

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Last season was my first year in rally. Gorman was my fisrt rally and I started seed 6. At the end of the rally we finished 2nd overall and missed 1st place by 14 secondes. In one of the morning stages one of the seed 6 driver on front us roll the car and block the stage wich was cancel, so we got the time of the slowest car who didn't get block. In the afternoon we ran that stage again and our time was over 2 mins faster than the one they gave us in the morning. So yes I lost the rally because I was seed 6, but you have to sart somewhere. Nobody even me could know that I was fast. I think the seeding is fair the way it is.
We starded Treeline seed 2 and got 3 flats tire in 2 stages which put us far in the line for the afternoon stages. So what we did, we talk to the car on the front of us and told them there is a good chance we are going to catch them so if they could be ready for us. Which they did, we passed 3 cars in 3 stages and maybe lost 2 minutes overall. We finished that rally 3rd overall.
My point is, it is possible to have a good performance even if you start at the back, just talk to the people on front of you.
You can't show up with no experience at a rally and expect a seed 2 or 3 because you say you are fast or you have a $40,000 race car. You have to earn it.
I like the seeding the way it is even if sometime it doesn't work 100 %, overall it is a good way to do it.
Stephan
By the way I have a 88 323 gtx and race PGT.
 

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Well, I saw drivers in Sno Drift that were absolutely terrible a were in seed 3. Many think that since Subaru sponsors if you have a new WRX you retain a higher seed.
 

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Trevor,

Okay I think I see your point. The big issue is that some cars won't be able to start an event because there are too many entries and a cutoff will happen based on seeding (already happening at STPR). Due to the cutoff being based on seeding, some of the experienced teams in 2wd cars (especially Production cars) are at risk to being "bumped out" by less skilled drivers in 4WD Open Class machinery.

I could be in favor of a solution for that problem. For example: The PRB could guarantee starting eligibility to all Production class teams that have achieved at least a seed 5 (or maybe even 6) whatever makes sense. How does that sound?

I don't think G5 and G2 need any favors in this regard. A well-prepped and well-driven car in those classes should be able to move up the seed list relatively quickly anyway.

How's that sound?
Dave Hintz
Car # 207
 
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