Special Stage Forums banner

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
678 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Is there any good reason for the US National Championship to have 9 events? The US is so huge and Americans get so few vacation days that all a 9 event championship does is make it out of reach financially to 99% of competitors. Looking at the ProRally statistics for 2003, zero drivers competed at all 9 events, and only 8 contested 8 events. Of those 8 drivers, at least 5 were manufacturer supported, meaning only 3 privateers competed at that level.

I think that if the National Championship consisted of only 6 events, there would be a lot more participation and competition. If you think that is too small look at some other prime rally countries that have 6 event national championships:

Australia (nearly the size of the contiguous US)
Sweden (slightly larger than California)
Norway (slightly larger than New Mexico)
New Zealand (about the size of Colorado)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
946 Posts
>Is there any good reason for the US National Championship to
>have 9 events? The US is so huge and Americans get so few
>vacation days that all a 9 event championship does is make
>it out of reach financially to 99% of competitors. Looking
>at the ProRally statistics for 2003, zero drivers competed
>at all 9 events, and only 8 contested 8 events. Of those 8
>drivers, at least 5 were manufacturer supported, meaning
>only 3 privateers competed at that level.
>
>I think that if the National Championship consisted of only
>6 events, there would be a lot more participation and
>competition. If you think that is too small look at some
>other prime rally countries that have 6 event national
>championships:
>
>Australia (nearly the size of the contiguous US)
>Sweden (slightly larger than California)
>Norway (slightly larger than New Mexico)
>New Zealand (about the size of Colorado)

Two things I think should be done.

Go back to best 6 out of 9. Only score best 6.

And eliminate all but 3 classes. Pick 3, any three. If you win a championship you should have to beat 3-4 people at least.

Group N, Group 5 and Group 2 (production rules so close to G2 now, don't bother with Prod, even though I'd rather 2wd Prod be the only class...).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
678 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Why have 9 events instead of 6? Is there one good reason for it? If you had 6, you could make it best 5 of 6.

I agree on 3 classes: AWD (Open/Group N/PGT combined, restricted with Group N restrictors and weight minimums), Group 5, and Group F. Maybe even combine Group 5 into Group F with some adjustments. Two classes: AWD and 2WD. Easy for the general public. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
472 Posts
Two classes: AWD and 2WD. Easy for
>the general public. :)
good thinking it should be just two wheel against 2wheel and awd against awd
 

·
400 flat to crest
Joined
·
5,777 Posts
Children,
don't forget that it was the ft/lbs of torque in Audis fwd TURBOCHARGED car that drove them to develop the 4wd system.
It is the TORQUE distributed between 4 wheels which makes it so easy to drive, but it is TORQUE FROM THE TURBO that make them fast.

Turbos and non-turbos don't belong in the same class.
Try to understand that, it ain't hard.


John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
678 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
John,

Combining Group 5 and Group F is just a hypothetical/theoretical/fantasy scenario.

But let me ask you this other fantasy question: would a Group N restrictor (32mm?) bring the torque down on the turbo 2WD cars to Group F competitive levels?
 

·
400 flat to crest
Joined
·
5,777 Posts
>John,
>
>Combining Group 5 and Group F is just a
>hypothetical/theoretical/fantasy scenario.
>
>But let me ask you this other fantasy question: would a
>Group N restrictor (32mm?) bring the torque down on the
>turbo 2WD cars to Group F competitive levels?
Shenan, very breifly torque is a result of two things
engine volume
compression
Now compression is not the ol ClV+GV+ChV devided by ClV+ GV there are factors like inlet valve opening times and in the case of a turbo care charge pressure.
Now a normal aspirated motor can only make so much torque withing the limitatations of burning gasoline you can buy, cause that limits the compression ratio and the ignition advance.
So if we look at Derek bottles nice VW we see really high compression but a 308* duration on the cam, so we know that his intake valve is open a long time after BDC, hell a street cam is open to 47* or more, so from that we see his compression actually ISN'T 12.7:1 but somewhere lower.

In a turbo motor even if you restrict what passes into the turbo, there is no restriction on what happens to the air after that, so whatever happens, it's still way more VOLUME than a normal aspirated car can swallow, AND you can still squeeze that pretty hard (restricted turbo motors are over 9.1-9.2:1), you don't need those long duration cams which the normal aspirated motor had to get a big gulp, so more effective compression that way, too.

No the solution isn't more restrictions, but RATIONAL classes.

Derek Bottles has some interesting figures regarding F2 motors and those are wacky 240 to 270 bhp BEEEEG DOLLAR$ motors with sky hig comp and I know they have cams with like 334* duration, lots of BHP but just 160 to 170 ft/lbs.
Same as a stock Saab 900 turbo from 1979.
Saab delivered it over a wider range, a friendly peak torque and a wide ratio box was all that was needed.





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 

·
50 L3/CR 70 Yump 200
Joined
·
997 Posts
> Looking at the ProRally statistics for 2003, zero drivers competed
>at all 9 events,

HUH !? - We (Mark Utecht/Jeff Secor) were at all the 03 nationals (and a few clubs)- So were Shane and Paul (our gr. N competition) So were 2 Mitsu's and the Airforce car w/ TimO and Alex I believe.
Burmeister/Krolikowski and Whiteman/Paulin made 'um all and I think Doug and Pete in the SRT4 did as well.
I expect there were a few others (PGT champs?)

>
>I think that if the National Championship consisted of only
>6 events, there would be a lot more participation and
>competition. >

I agree w/ you on this and I believe that was the SCCA plan for '05 .
- We used to do it that way, but I believe it changed w/ ProDrive coming over a few years back. (Guess they could afford it huh?).

jeff secor
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
907 Posts
I say only have a 6 event championship and count 5 best out of 6 events. 9 is too many even of you only count 6.

-george
 

·
straight at T
Joined
·
2,472 Posts
>Ah, I apologize for the error. I based my information on
>rally racing news Pro Rally statistics for 2003:
>http://www.rallyracingnews.com/scca/prorally-stats03.html
>
>It shows no drivers having competed all 9 events.

That would be because there were only 8 events in 2003. It shows 8 drivers as having competed in all 8 (which is the same number as competed in all 9 events in 2002).

>Maybe you can send them a correction?

Not necessary.

Adrian
 

·
Slid'n around 'n havin a ball
Joined
·
2,953 Posts
RE: How about a single international Championship?

Hi guys,
Just got back from the trip and I have a lot to catch up on.
(For some reason, I had more fun driving 120+ and looking at sights than typing on a laptop at hotel wireless rates).

The easy fix is to get RA and NASA together, run East and West qualifiers (like six or more each side) and finally a shootoff or two at the end of the "season" (whatever that is in this crazy sport) that count double.
Allow a couple "out of division" events to count and allow a few drops for personal schedule problems/breakdowns. Next, work on adding the CDN events to the championship and you'll reduce the number of conflicting championships from something like six to one for all of North America.
No Pro/regional divisions, just a minimum stage mileage to keep rallysprints from counting against real events, fewer classes or just adopt CDN ones if that makes it easier to consolodate.

With this plan, every organizer that wants gets to run an event can, every team that wants to go to a particular event can (and possibly get credit for it) and those that want to win something will have won something that matters against everyone we know.
Too simple?
rz
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
678 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Oops, you are right! I read that part completely wrong. But it still means only 3 privateers went to all 8 events, and 2 went to 7 events (did Doug Shepherd have any factory support last year?). That's IF I'm reading the page right this time. :)
 

·
400 flat to crest
Joined
·
5,777 Posts
RE: How about a single international Championship?

>Hi guys,
>Just got back from the trip and I have a lot to catch up on.
>(For some reason, I had more fun driving 120+ and looking at
>sights than typing on a laptop at hotel wireless rates).

Ain't life grand when people have some Lane disipline??
>
>The easy fix is to get RA and NASA together, run East and
>West qualifiers (like six or more each side) and finally a
>shootoff or two at the end of the "season" (whatever that is
>in this crazy sport) that count double.
>Allow a couple "out of division" events to count and allow a
>few drops for personal schedule problems/breakdowns. Next,
>work on adding the CDN events to the championship and you'll
>reduce the number of conflicting championships from
>something like six to one for all of North America.

>No Pro/regional divisions, just a minimum stage mileage to
>keep rallysprints from counting against real events, fewer
>classes or just adopt CDN ones if that makes it easier to
>consolodate.
>
>With this plan, every organizer that wants gets to run an
>event can, every team that wants to go to a particular event
>can (and possibly get credit for it) and those that want to
>win something will have won something that matters against
>everyone we know.
>Too simple?
>rz
Nein, Herr Zimmer, Schmart! Veeeeeery Schmart!
[http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Satellite/7529/kaos1a.jpg]


Aber, isn't your idea, especially the bit about no Divisional/National vaguely sneakily similar to the ol' 'count everything and give them all a milage coefficiernt' trick suggested for years by the agent of all that is good Herr Vanlandamnyoursoulsummunabeeech?


I say your suggestion is veeeeeeeeeeeeery Interestink, und
[http://kopell.tripod.com/gs/gsagain.jpg]
Schmart..Seer Schmart.




John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top