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NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!!
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·


This is number of rally entries by cars in the US, covering all rallies/rallysprints, by anyone, anywhere in the country. As you can see, 2011 is half of what 2003 was.

So here's your call to action!

You need to promote the sport! Today! Make your own flier and graphics if you have to!

You need to find more drivers and navigators! Use the (gasp!) phone if you have to!

You need to help organize events!

You need to contribute to the volunteer pool, either by finding volunteers or volunteering yourself!

Whoever the "they" is that you think should be doing all this... is not important. This is not a sport of "they", it's a sport of "we"!

I think that the paraphrasing works here: Ask not what rally can do for you... ask what you can do for rally! :cool:

Anders
 

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your other left, you idiot
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Um, Anders-

I can push numbers as well as the next guy.

BUT:

As it stands, that graph tells me nothing.

There is no scale to the Y axis.

One has to "assume" it is linear to follow your reasoning..................

(You running for office?)

ymmv



This is number of rally entries by cars in the US, covering all rallies/rallysprints, by anyone, anywhere in the country. As you can see, 2011 is half of what 2003 was.

So here's your call to action!

You need to promote the sport! Today! Make your own flier and graphics if you have to!

You need to find more drivers and navigators! Use the (gasp!) phone if you have to!

You need to help organize events!

You need to contribute to the volunteer pool, either by finding volunteers or volunteering yourself!

Whoever the "they" is that you think should be doing all this... is not important. This is not a sport of "they", it's a sport of "we"!

I think that the paraphrasing works here: Ask not what rally can do for you... ask what you can do for rally! :cool:

Anders
press on,
 

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NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!!
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Ok, so I can file response number one as "Oh, that's probably all made up." Not what I expected.

Yes, Jimmy, the scale is linear. Yes, it starts at zero. The absolute Y scale is trivia. No, I'm not running for office. I'm trying to get people off their asses and doing something. Blowing smoke with constant PR that says "the sport is growing" and saying that everything is fine certainly isn't going to motivate people to change.

If you can push numbers as well as the next guy... please do. I'd love to have you corroborate the data. You know where to get it, the entry results are all public record.

Anders
 

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Just asking a question as I am far from a Rally expert (as is so readily pointed out here on a regular basis) but what do people view as the difference between the '02 time period and now? Economy only (can someone tell me what the typical entry fee was in '02 vs. now?)? Other motorsports crowding in on Rally's target audience? Pastrana's peak? I dunno, I'm just asking...
 

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Entry fees have not changed much, if at all for many rallies. I'd bet to say that factoring in inflation, many entry fees have stayed the same.

A few years ago I had a graph showing the economy next to the number of entries. They lined up well.

It's still a good call to action. We need more people involved in rally!!!
 

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Entry fees have not changed much, if at all for many rallies. I'd bet to say that factoring in inflation, many entry fees have stayed the same.

A few years ago I had a graph showing the economy next to the number of entries. They lined up well.

It's still a good call to action. We need more people involved in rally!!!
It's all Bush's fault!!! :p
 

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BTW i counted 474 Entries spread out over 24 events (counting RA national and the supporting regional as separate events) I did not count hill climbs, because if RA and NRS and all "rally" went away the hill climbs would continue.

looking at his chart, so maybe each line is 150 entries... we are at 154 entries right now for 6 events. (26 entries per event, versus 20 last year) BUT the later part of the year has a lot of the under subscribed events... I think 600 Entries would be a great goal for this year... How do we get there? WORK. sign up to an event (race) sign up to an event (work) find a new team and help them get onto the stages.. !
 

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straight at T
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Just asking a question as I am far from a Rally expert (as is so readily pointed out here on a regular basis) but what do people view as the difference between the '02 time period and now? Economy only (can someone tell me what the typical entry fee was in '02 vs. now?)? Other motorsports crowding in on Rally's target audience? Pastrana's peak? I dunno, I'm just asking...
There were three manufacturer-supported teams (Subaru, Mitsubishi, Hyundai) and some well-funded privateer teams and some fairly good collection of offshore talent (Higgins brothers, Mark Lovell). The manufacturers funded some decent TV shows. The economy had not taken a nosedive, so there was a fair amount of discretionary cash available. Note that if Anders had extended the graph back a few years, it would have shown a climb out of a nadir around 1995-1997.

http://www.rallyracingnews.com/scca/prorally-stats02.html has the entry fees (near the bottom)

For an examople, the national entries at STPR were (according to Rally Racing News):
1990 - 62
1991 - 61
1992 - 60
1993 - 63
1994 - 54
1995 - 36
1996 - 41
1997 - 51
1998 - 65
1999 - 78
2000 - 76
2001 - 90 (capped)
2002 - 84
2003 - 61
2004 - 35
2005 - 36 (Start of RA)
2006 - 45
2007 - 37
2008 - 25
2009 - 26
2010 - 20
2011 - 18

Note that these are national numbers and the dynamics of the entries changed somewhat after 2004.

Adrian
 

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Open AWD Extraordinaire!
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Any chance of a projected 2012 based on entries to-date vs the same time period in 2011? I have this general sense that entires (as a whole) are up in 2012, but no data to back it up. I'd prefer someone else do the work :p
Mark, I think what this exercise on Anders' part is an effort to get *us on this forum* to validate (or contradict with replacement data) his US-based assumptions. As you clearly noted, you would prefer someone else to do the work, but there is no one else.

This (bold) move by Anders appears to an effort to throw some empirical data out there for people to stew on. While I myself would love to see a valid Y-axis, upon reflection, it's not important. The *trend* is what is important. Take whatever data set you want and superimpose it over the data presented. The *scale* is not in question here and is not the focus - the trend of where things are going is of concern.

I can think of a lot of interesting ways to look at the data and I'm reserving my giant post on this hoping that others will give some of their thoughts rather than my repeated and regurgitated prose on the subject, but one important question I see is:

What happened in 07? It looked like it temporarily went up. My guess - Lots of 02 bugeyes coming off of loan and people rallying cars that they no longer owed anyone else for (beyond credit card companies for build costs). Others' thoughts?
 

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Dramamine is for DramaQueens
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Crunching numbers is one thing, but only shows you the what, not the why. I'd suggest you need to understand the why to be able to fix the what.

In other words, if you have a product that you know is a good product but the demand for that product is waning, does just promoting that product bring sales back up or do you look at the product itself. Do you look at similar products in other markets and mimic what they are doing?

In the case of rally, do you try and 'lower the bar' for entry to the sport and make it more accessible? At some point, don't you risk of making it so accessible that it becomes easier to have a passing interest in it? (Before someone blows that out of context, no, I'm not suggesting high start-up costs means sure success for the sport)
 

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Credit: www.RallyRacingNews.com

there was a good decade with yearly Entries in the 300s

What happened from 97 to 01 ? In 1998 Colin mcRea rally video game was released, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Rally_Championship_video_games I believe it was the first rally video game we got..

what else happened? economic up turn?

what else? what was done for marketing?

I went to a drag strip last weekend (ugh.. it sucked) but i did notice there was lots of people there, and a lot of money was in some of those cars... Why do they drag race instead of rally? do they even know what rally is? (guess i should have asked around a bit more) hmm.. it might actually be worth going back to survey people... hmm... :confused:
 

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Perhaps there needs to be a national organization for promoting rallying in north america? There seems to be lot of isolated rally organizers, but no group whos mission is promotion. Like a trade or industry group. Something that RA and GRC and CRC would be a member of, and whos monetary contributions would go to promoting the sport overall. Im just brainstorming.
 

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NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!!
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Alex, I'm guessing that's from the national-only SCCA results? One of the big mysteries when it comes to US rally history is "What about the club events?" I would imagine that the SCCA has some records, but who knows if they will ever be analyzed. :( If someone said to me "Put together a complete rally schedule from 1985" I know that I don't have the resources to do it. (Like, not time, but actual access to information.) One of the big difficulties currently is tracking/counting dual entries, the percentage of which varies wildly through the years and events.

I really don't know... were there two club events in 1985? Or forty? The people here now would be guessing back 30 years. And with all the work that it took to get a complete list of what existed only since I started racing (I got involved in 1999) I think the only way to get all that info would to be from inside the SCCA and spend several weeks in their archives.

Any chance of a projected 2012 based on entries to-date vs the same time period in 2011? I have this general sense that entires (as a whole) are up in 2012, but no data to back it up. I'd prefer someone else do the work :p
Haha! :D "I would like to imagine that whatever the problem is or was, it's gone now so I don't have to worry, but I want to have someone else prove it for me." Sorry Mark, but that doesn't really fit with the "Here's what we've got." and "You need to help!" ideas of the thread. *grin* In any case, it would be difficult, there was an additional rally this year (Arizona Extreme Rally) that wasn't on the schedule last year, and it only had 4 entries, so... It's always tough to do sub-full-year apples-to-apples comparison because of the very dynamic nature of events coming and going. And you can see that looking just at a subset of events (Alex's graph) there can be significant differences between those events and the overall sport.

Cheers,
Anders
 

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straight at T
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there was a good decade with yearly Entries in the 300s

What happened from 97 to 01 ? In 1998 Colin mcRea rally video game was released, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Rally_Championship_video_games I believe it was the first rally video game we got..

what else happened? economic up turn?

what else? what was done for marketing?

I went to a drag strip last weekend (ugh.. it sucked) but i did notice there was lots of people there, and a lot of money was in some of those cars... Why do they drag race instead of rally? do they even know what rally is? (guess i should have asked around a bit more) hmm.. it might actually be worth going back to survey people... hmm... :confused:
Some of the factors:

- Sega Rally, plus other rally videogames (but Sega primarily)
- higher profile due to manufacturer support (Subaru/Mitsubishi/Hyundai primarily)
- new blood at the top level the rally organization (Dennis Dean and Kurt Spitzner) with a focus on growing/promoting the sport*
- the first Subaru 2.5RS was a 1998 model and the first WRX was a 2002 model, with rally-related advertising
- economy was good

*otherwise known as dragging it kicking and screaming into the limelight

The reason people drag race (and circle track race) is that it CAN be significantly cheaper than rally, and they typically only need to commit a day/afternoon/evening to the competition.

Adrian
 

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didn't mean to get any credit for the above graph.. grabbed it from rally racing news and yes i actually failed to grab the 4 entries for the AZ extreme , so 158 Entries this year (so far)

I like the joint rally promotion idea (RA + NRS + CARS). We actually have it much easier now than people did 15 years ago (Internet , youtube, facebook) but the attitude has shifted from "I can do it, We can do it" to "i want someone else to do it for me"

The way i see it.. there's 3 markets to try advertising in (basically 2)
1) Non Racing Market : get the word out to people who are not racers, or part of a racers family
2.a) Current Racing market : Drag racers, circle racers, track racers, hill climbers, etc
2.b) Current Racing market (loosely connected) : cone rally crossers, dirt track racers, hill climbers

Then there is different ideas of how to get these people to become rally drivers .. Direct Exposure get them to a rally where they will see actual rally cars (hopefully in action) spectate , volunteer, crew ..

similar experience exposure (rally crosses, rally school )

Indirect exposure (Youtube, websites, magazine articles , ads, etc)
 

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Crunching numbers is one thing, but only shows you the what, not the why. I'd suggest you need to understand the why to be able to fix the what.

In other words, if you have a product that you know is a good product but the demand for that product is waning, does just promoting that product bring sales back up or do you look at the product itself. Do you look at similar products in other markets and mimic what they are doing?

In the case of rally, do you try and 'lower the bar' for entry to the sport and make it more accessible? At some point, don't you risk of making it so accessible that it becomes easier to have a passing interest in it? (Before someone blows that out of context, no, I'm not suggesting high start-up costs means sure success for the sport)
I don't think the product is waning, I would say there is a lot of interest. I think new customers don't know how to get in on the action, as every newcomer needs to talk through the pitfalls and economics with people of experience. As much as I like to read some of the sh-one -t on forums it TENDS to be miss direction and rumours from people who don't know or have never done, so the people who really do know and would likely help, get lost in the miss direction.

Look at trying to get the SCCA to come back into the speed events as bridge between the 5 National championships (RA, Maxattack, NASA, USRC, Historic) and get a link to the clubs. Get some common regulations across the sport to make it easier for new comers to see a path through to beating KB,TP and the world championship. After a couple of years they will be hooked into a regional championship that will cover all the rally's in their region and they not have to pull more than 500miles to do it.
Someone must be respected by all the bodies to broker a common path. Unity and make compromises for the common good of the sport!
I'll sit in on a conference call, if you want someone to chair the meeting and be impartial.
Good luck, I live to far away to really help but one day I might come and take part in an event or two.
Ian
 

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As a newbie co organizer ( Not new to rally ) I can say hosting an event is not as hard as it seems. You have to surround yourself with good qualified peope which I can attest here in Michigan we are blessed to no end. This isnt a self pat on the back but a recognition of the Magnum Opus Organizing team and a thank you to the competitors that are trusting us to put on a low as cost possible fun event. Last fall our local chamber of commerce director and my boss were walking by my office and simply asked, ( Right after LSPR ) what would it take to get one of them there rallies here in our town. Well, I said, just ask for starters.. They did and with some communcation to Bill Westrick , My Co-Chair Curt Egerer we were off, We then had offers of help from every part of the state and beyond to help. John Fishbeck our worker chief has been the glue to us putting together some great volunteers. Next we had local support from the community. Road permissions, fairground permissions and sponsor support actually was overwhelming. Everything we have done to this point has been almost easy. What truly is inspiring is the fact we have volunteers coming from as far away as South Dakota, Missouri, and even one from Florida. This is a huge expense to them and amazing that they want to be part of our event for that we are really grateful to our volunteer support ! Moral to this heartwarming story is that within a week we had a plan and made a commitment to do a rally. Dont be afraid get involved and just do it.
 

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Funny how one topic that was getting everyone "uppity" was touching on this last week. Now the same comments are being made and magically the UN-popular ideas are now in fashion.

I would like to know the age demographic of the last 4 years. What has brought them to the sport, and what are the past experiences in auto racing. I see a lot of young individuals trying to get into the sport. What turned them onto it? my money is on KB and TP... (yep I can say that in this thread, just not the other one).


As for drag racing. I have some experience in that form of motorsport; Most people start by building up the daily driver and take it to the track on weekends. These are regular vehicles built to have fun on the street and lets face it, that's light to light drags. What I have seen is the vehicle's slowly transform into track only vehicles (or should be). The transition from a street car to a weekend drag racer is a very easy transition (but VERY expensive, like 3 transmissions in as many months but I digress). Rally on the other hand is not so easy. Not many people will cage a car and then drive it to work Monday. Rally is not going to pull many people from drag racing into rally. better chance getting the ladies scrap booking auxiliary into it than trying to teach someone how to turn a corner.
 

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Haha! :D "I would like to imagine that whatever the problem is or was, it's gone now so I don't have to worry, but I want to have someone else prove it for me." Sorry Mark, but that doesn't really fit with the "Here's what we've got." and "You need to help!" ideas of the thread. *grin* In any case, it would be difficult, there was an additional rally this year (Arizona Extreme Rally) that wasn't on the schedule last year, and it only had 4 entries, so... It's always tough to do sub-full-year apples-to-apples comparison because of the very dynamic nature of events coming and going. And you can see that looking just at a subset of events (Alex's graph) there can be significant differences between those events and the overall sport.
Ahh Anders, now you're trying to extrapolate my motivation behind asking the question with insufficeint data! I'm genuinely curious about the numbers. Not looking for numbers to back up a pet theory. As I said, I have a general overall impression, but that's a long way from saying "I think things are getting better so we don't need to do anything."
 
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