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codriveur
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1,385 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A few yrs ago when the whole head restraint thing started to come into vouge, Hutchins was roundly dismissed. I was looking @ the HANS and where to get it, then I thought lets check the people who advertise in those banners above as those people that support rally deserve my business first, and found the Hutchins R3 is offered by an advertiser.

I'm sure it has been improved and redeveloped.The ad pushed a 38.1 sfi rating, is that the same or better than the HANS? So, any comments when compared to the HANS? Is anyone using it? Has anyone used both? Does it have any advantages/disadvantages?

Thanks,

Bernie
 

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Premium Member
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Hi Bernie,

Take a look at this.

http://www.safedrives.com/prodimages/lfttech/SFI_test_Col2_lg.jpg

See the HANS Device as it fails in a side impact? ^^^ What would happen in a secondary impact now that your belts are loose?

Just today I found this video on nasioc. Very compelling reason to not buy the HANS Device.

http://www.isaacdirect.com/images/Video/SFIBoth.mpg
This shows the 30 degree offset test.

Keep in mind that the Isaac device is not SFI 38.1 certified and they have NO plans to certify it to that level (I talked to the Isaac systems head engineer today). However the video is just super. Super scary...

The SFI 38.1 certified H&N devices that we sell at safedrives.com do not rely on the harness in the way that the HANS Device does. Check out the side impact test photos in this PDF from LFT Tech (maker of our SFI 38.1 H&N systems)http://www.safedrives.com/prodimages/lfttech/R3_Sled_Test.pdf

And if you can't afford a fancy $10,000 seat then you should probably be looking at this photo as well.
http://www.safedrives.com/prodimages/lfttech/SideImpactNetcomparison.pdf

Bernie, please don't buy a HANS Device. :)

Best regards,

Charles Buren
Safe Drives LLC
www.safedrives.com
877-739-1713 toll free
cburen @@@ safedrives.com
 

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>I'm sure it has been improved and redeveloped.The ad pushed a
>38.1 sfi rating, is that the same or better than the HANS?
>So, any comments when compared to the HANS? Is anyone using
>it? Has anyone used both? Does it have any
>advantages/disadvantages?

While some people have "worn" both, not all that many have "used" both.

I personally am planning on getting the R3. The HANS device doesn't seem to help much in side impacts and there is a good chance that when I need my head and neck protected it will be a side impact.

As to some of the others, as far as I'm concerned if it doesn't meeet the SFI 38.1 standards I'm not going to spend any money on them. Every sanctioning body out there is leaning towards SFI 38.1. Why people are considering let alone buying the Issac system (I know of a several of racers who got them this offseason) is beyond me. Spending $750 bucks on a head and neck restraint that will not be legal when head and neck restraints are required, and then going and spending another grand on one that is legal--it is just plain stupid. Issac does not (and will not in the future) have a single point of release which is a requirement of the SFI 38.1 standard.
 

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>
>Just today I found this video on nasioc. Very compelling
>reason to not buy the HANS Device.
>
>http://www.isaacdirect.com/images/Video/SFIBoth.mpg
>This shows the 30 degree offset test.
>

So, if you're stapped down to a flat steel seat in a test contracted by a competing device's manufacturer, and your left arm is tied tight to the seat platform and forces your shoulder back, and the Hans collar comes out from under one side of the belt, the device still works?

Not very compelling.
 

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I have a cat.
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3,676 Posts
>Not very compelling.

I particularly like in the above pictures how their device is shown used with huge side impact wings on either side of the head, while the competition shows nothing there or a soft net. "In test after test..." yet they couldn't test all the equipment on the same sled with the same seat. Nice apples to oranges comparison by the looks of it.

I'm not saying its a bad part. I'm just saying I need an independent analysis, not a sales blurb from the company with obvious bias. Get the things tested in a comparison against the HANS. Forgive me if I don't believe the paid for "pictures."
 

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www.christianedstrom.com
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2,144 Posts
>Short answer: Buy a HANS and a Racetech or Recaro head
>restraint seat together.

I'm not an SAE member, but I spend the ~ $8 each and downloaded all those docs and read them before getting a HANS in 2005. I recommend the documents; they are easily readable by the layman with little to no engineering background. Having read them, I agree with Eric's assessment.

>PS...there is a paper on the Isaac system and the results look
>pretty promising, but there is no getting around that single
>point of detachment problem.

I read the "dashpot" paper too. I disagree that there is no getting around the single point of detachment, however. For instance, you could have a HANS style yoke with dashpots.

- Christian

Bjorn Christian Edstrom
www.christianedstrom.com
 

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I have a cat.
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The tests in paper 3516 were a resynthesis of data of the tests in 3304 plus they added a straight on test. The makers of the devices objected to the 3 msec clip filtering of the force data theat removed some "artifactual spikes". The results were nearly identical.

Products tested were the Hutchens, the HANS, and the D-CEL. 6pt. latch and link. 30 deg. impact to the right/50G peak (35mph). Also, 0 deg. impact/100G peak (60mph).

Re: 30deg./50G test: "The Hutchens and D-CEL devices provided borderline performance in controlling neck tension forces and no significant reduction in forward head excursion at the crash severity used in the tests."

The data is pretty interesting.

Edit...it is important to consider the source, even in SAE papers. The "dashpot" paper above was written by the inventor of the Isaac.

The comparo paper was written by folks at Bioengineering Center at Wayne State University in Detroit. This is where many car companies do their crash testing. The authors have written many of the papers on race car safety.
 

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3/14=my 42nd rally anniversary
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The safety symposiums offered at the recent scca national convention were at least as rewarding as hanging with the few real rallyists there (Becker, Buffum, Elkin, K. Poirier and Lanz). The seminar conducted by Dr. John Melvin of Tandelta, Inc. opened with a disclaimer that stated he had no commercial interest in the HANS device and then put forward some compelling data and photographic evidence that convinced me that I'd settle for nothing less than a HANS were I in the market for HNR equipment today. One of the points he made that really stuck with me was how some of the other HNR systems were designed to do well with the test sled dummies but real-life data acquisition proved how they were inferior to the HANS. A few of the notes I jotted down include, 'HANS is the only HNR that limits helmet movement (aids in protection during multiple impacts).' and 'HANS works in impacts up to 45 degrees.'

I'm not trying to shoot anyone down here, just passing along what I came away with from the presentations in KC a little over a week ago.

Halley ...
http://motors.search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZrealautosport
Then, BBBBB (Bring Back Big Bend Bash)
http://www.realautosport.com
 

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Premium Member
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802 Posts
>>
>>Just today I found this video on nasioc. Very compelling
>>reason to not buy the HANS Device.
>>
>>http://www.isaacdirect.com/images/Video/SFIBoth.mpg
>>This shows the 30 degree offset test.
>>
>
>So, if you're stapped down to a flat steel seat in a test
>contracted by a competing device's manufacturer, and your left
>arm is tied tight to the seat platform and forces your
>shoulder back, and the Hans collar comes out from under one
>side of the belt, the device still works?
>
>Not very compelling.

Thank you for pointing that out Mike.

I did not notice the left arm being tied lower on the HANS Device equiped dummy than the Isaac dummie on the right. That's reason enough right there to not buy the Isaac, just plain dishonest...

Best regards,

Charles Buren
Safe Drives LLC
www.safedrives.com
877-739-1713 toll free
cburen @@@ safedrives.com
 

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>>So, if you're stapped down to a flat steel seat in a test
>That's reason enough right there to not buy the Isaac, just
>plain dishonest...
>

I don't think it's a matter of dishonesty, just an example why we shouldn't rely too much on simple video evidence.
 

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3/14=my 42nd rally anniversary
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3,979 Posts
Hurst said,

>Not very compelling.

What I find compelling about that video is that despite the fact the Hans is restrained by only half the shoulder belts it's still the more effective device! Pause the vid where the right-hand dummy's head is at full droop and you'll see he is looking at his own crotch while the half-restrained HANS dummy is only looking at his own knee.

Halley ...
http://motors.search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZrealautosport
Then, BBBBB (Bring Back Big Bend Bash)
http://www.realautosport.com
 

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Premium Member
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802 Posts
>What I find compelling about that video is that despite the
>fact the Hans is restrained by only half the shoulder belts
>it's still the more effective device! Pause the vid where the
>right-hand dummy's head is at full droop and you'll see he is
>looking at his own crotch while the half-restrained HANS dummy
>is only looking at his own knee.

I agree that it looks like the unrestrained HANS Device is working better than the Isaac system. But if the HANS Device relies entirely on the harness system to work properly what is restraining the HANS Device in this video? What would happen to the occupant in a second impact?

One thing that my many conversations with the different H&N restraint manufacturers has left me with is that the HANS Device has the potential to actually hurt the wearer. Mikes statement here kind of points out how that might happen. When I pause at 05 and 06 seconds the helmet/head of the LH dummy is pushing the HANS Device down into the collar bone area. According to some of the people I have talked to this has happened in the real world hurting people badly. It sure looks like that is what is happening in this video...

Mike your comments here from Dr. Melvin really surprised me.
>A few of the notes I jotted down include, 'HANS
>is the only HNR that limits helmet movement (aids in
>protection during multiple impacts).
How can this be true when the whole point of a H&N restraint (and the SFI 38.1 testing) is to limit helmet movement? Seems odd to me that Dr. Melvin would say that.

>' and 'HANS works in impacts up to 45 degrees.'
Yeah, that makes me want to run out and buy a HANS Device. }(

In the context of a $10000 seat, the experts that I have talked to agree that the HANS Device works. But your seat structure and the seat head restraint side wings must be very, very rigid. But they also agree that even in that context the HANS Device has the potential to fail since it relies on the harness.


To me a system like the HANS Device that has the potential to fail in this manner is just not a safe choice. I mean, it CAN fail by coming out from the harness so why use it when the other SFI 38.1 devices do not rely on the harness for them to work?

Best regards,

Charles Buren
Safe Drives LLC
www.safedrives.com
877-739-1713 toll free
cburen @@@ safedrives.com
 

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>I personally am planning on getting the R3. The HANS device
>doesn't seem to help much in side impacts and there is a good
>chance that when I need my head and neck protected it will be
>a side impact.

It seems to me that some sort of body based mount like the R3 (or HANS), coupled with a dashpot might be a good combination. You'd get the benefits of the controlled velocity of the damper, plus the "single point release" by having the dashpots anchored to your body and not the harness. (I realize that the HANS is restrained by the harness, but its not fixed to it like the Isaac).

-chris
 

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The pictures above convinced me that the tests were flawed, let alone watching the video's.

We don't know how the shoulder harness were secured, or whether they were installed as recommended for HANS as per the FIA document. By the looks of the pictures the shoulder straps weren't passing through slots in the back of the seat, which help to miantain their relative position, and the seats in the test didn't have proper shoulder support like the ones we rally in.
 

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codriveur
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1,385 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
>
>Short answer: Buy a HANS and a Racetech or Recaro head
>restraint seat together.


OK, Say I'm a codriver that may be in more than one car during the season, I have no or little control of the seat I'm in or belts I use. So far everything is based on a perfect "system" comprised of multiple complimentary componants. Still the HANS over the R3? (Co-Driving for different people sounds dumber everytime I think about it)



(I'll download those papers later today when I have time thanks.)

Bernie
 

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Dirt surfer
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1,367 Posts
>>

>
>In the context of a $10000 seat, the experts that I have
>talked to agree that the HANS Device works. But your seat
>structure and the seat head restraint side wings must be very,
>very rigid. But they also agree that even in that context the
>HANS Device has the potential to fail since it relies on the
>harness.
>
>
>
>
>
Don't know what $10,000 seat you are referring to. I have driven and codriven with the HANS in a "el cheapo" fiberglass Sparco Circuit head-restraint seat (under $1000) and have had no issues despite a couple of unfortunate opportunities to test the things out for real.

The instigation for HANS purchase came when we went off hard at Tall PInes a couple years back (punted a frozen earth banking at 45-degree front-in angle) which destroyed front left corner of the WRX and made my neck hurt for a week.

We also use HANS-specific 2" shoulder belts, crossed in back of the seats, which so far in our experience keeps the straps in place no matter what. In my own car, the 3" Sabelt shoulder straps work fine as well, crossed behind seats and fed thru narrow holes in the seatback. Newer HANS also have a raised edge on the yoke to help restrain the straps. The photos and vids above show a HANS being used in a seat with no belt holes--who uses a seat like that in rally anyway?

The HANS and the Circuit head-resraint seat are my Mom's favorite pieces of rally equipment.

Our new car uses Corbeau head-rrestraint seats with cutout side wings, which helps wih some side-visibility issues we've had with the Sparcos.

Dave G
www.lastditchracing.net

"...Embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."
 

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I have a cat.
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3,676 Posts
>OK, Say I'm a codriver that may be in more than one car
>during the season, I have no or little control of the seat I'm
>in or belts I use. So far everything is based on a perfect
>"system" comprised of multiple complimentary componants.
>Still the HANS over the R3? (Co-Driving for different people
>sounds dumber everytime I think about it)


Some of the codrivers who have ridden with me installed their own seat...Cindy supplied me with the seat and I made proper mounts for it to put her at the correct height and position. My feeling is that a seat is like a helmet and it had better fit the occupant well to be of use in a crash...not to mention, comfortable.

Discuss these things (what seat is in there, etc.) with every driver/owner you ride with. Harnesses make little difference from one to the next as long as they aren't mounted at the rear bumper.

Bottom line is how safe do you wanna be, and what is your mindset.

I think there are a lot of folks who are out there for fun who rarely push themselves beyond 6/10ths. (There's nothing wrong with that, really.) Perhaps they are comfortable with less head protection. This (at least for now) is a personal choice thing.



There are very few people in this world I would consider codriving for. And none of them are very fast.
 

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I have a cat.
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3,676 Posts
>One thing that my many conversations with the different H&N
>restraint manufacturers has left me with is that the HANS
>Device has the potential to actually hurt the wearer. Mikes
>statement here kind of points out how that might happen. When
>I pause at 05 and 06 seconds the helmet/head of the LH dummy
>is pushing the HANS Device down into the collar bone area.
>According to some of the people I have talked to this has
>happened in the real world hurting people badly. It sure looks
>like that is what is happening in this video...


The geometry of the unit does seem to increase neck compression (NC) forces in its effort to reduce neck tension (NT) forces and neck shear (NS).

Peak values in the 3516 tests show that while NC is increased by 223 N, NT is decreased by 5093 N and NS is decreased by 1317 N.

I would like to speak with a doctor about this (tho the paper is written by Dr. Melvin) to see what these forces mean in terms of survivability, but my guess is that if users are complaining of neck soreness from compression after an accident with the HANS, they may not be here to complain if they had not been wearing it.

This is why it sucks trying to buy equipment, because usually the only people to talk to are the manufacturers. I tried to get crash test data on seats from manufacturers. Recaro and Racetech were the only ones who would entertain the thought. Recaro never delivered.

The Viper seat was funded by Daimler Chrysler as they were developing a seat for a factory built race car (the Viper Competition Coupe). Imagine the lawsuits an automaker gets everyday. Now imagine what the lawyers are going to tell the guys in Dodge Motorsports when they say they wanna build a race car to sell direct from the company. They did their own testing of the seats at Autoliv in Auburn Hills, MI and worked with the New Zealand company to design a "sturdy" seat.

The Melvin paper 3515 gives a nod to the Racetech Viper seat as well, but doesn't elaborate on it much. The paper was primarily for recording data to provide seat manufacturers with strength/stiffness requirements for head supports, as well as shoulder, pelvic, leg, and rib supports (wrt side impacts).

From 3515: "The seat was designed to meet the static performance specifications listed above and has provisions for integrating a right side net for additional strength. In sled testing at 45G it was found that, with the net in place, satisfactory performance was achieved with significantly reduced neck tensions as well as good motion control of the upper body... ...This seat also meets FIA Standard 8855-1999."

It isn't the lightest thing on the market. It is the only thing going in my car, though.


This may be the only time you hear this from me...

"Thanks Dodge." :)
 

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3/14=my 42nd rally anniversary
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>Charles Buren
>Safe Drives LLC

Charles,

I was a simple attendee at a presentation featuring an independent, respected, credentialed biomedical research scientist who spoke to all sides of several HNRs and I came away from that session convinced that if I was required to buy an HNR right now it would be a HANS - period. I really didn't take notes with plans to defend Dr. Melvin so those I shared are likely way out of context, but that was the stuff I chose to write down. Sorry it's incomplete.

Dr. Melvin did mention that double shoulder belts eliminate all concerns for the HANS coming loose - something I gathered only happened with the older-style sled dummies during testing. Common sense tells me that if my chin bounces off my sternum during a massive deceleration while wearing a fully functional HNR then I'd have the right to ask what it was that my hundreds of dollars spent on said device actually gained me. If a half-restrained HANS does keep my chin from bruising my chest during that same deceleration event then I'd call that more HANS testimonial than a reason to buy the competition.

But that's just me. Like Dr. Melvin, I have no commercial interest in the HANS nor any compelling reason to bad-mouth any HNR.

Halley ...
http://motors.search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZrealautosport
Then, BBBBB (Bring Back Big Bend Bash)
http://www.realautosport.com
 
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