Special Stage Forums banner

1 - 20 of 29 Posts

·
400 flat to crest
Joined
·
5,777 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
This from rallyforum.com Asia/Pacific forum
Datsun Rally
Senior Member

Online

Cost of Group N. (post #1)

Though a few might be interested in this seeming that group N will be the main category in the NZRC next year (that is correct isn?t it or am I wrong?) and is it also the main category in the APRC next year?

At the end of last year Possum Bourne?s PWRC car sold for $100 000AU this was seen as the best you could buy for group N, only one season down the track and Chris Atkinson?s WRX is for sale for $160 000AU, a 60% rise in cost in only one year.

If you wan to buy it be quick because otherwise they are just sending it back to Prodrive.

I am interested to know how much is it now to buy a WRCar that is 1-2 or even 3 years old?

If costs keep rising like this then group N will be to expensive for privateers and then totally defeats the reason it was brought into the ARC as the main category. I think maybe some sort of cheaper formula should start to be looked at by the FIA. Say similar to group N but no Carbon fiber, strengthening of parts allowed and stuff like that.

***********
Sounds like another cost cutting idea that worked as well as previous cost cutting measures.



John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,812 Posts
>I think maybe some sort of cheaper formula should start
>to be looked at by the FIA.


Forget FIA formulas and their blown mommy-mobiles.

I say boot FIA out of USA!!!

I'd use much stronger language, but wouldn't want to make anyone blush.
 

·
Slid'n around 'n havin a ball
Joined
·
2,953 Posts
RE: GropeN $$

Last year Prodrive had three cars listed for sale so I looked there first - now they have a GN page...
From Prodrive.com:
"
impreza group n range
Three cars - one Impreza

It has never been easier to get behind the wheel of a world championship winning, Prodrive Impreza
Group N.

In addition to the full international specification Impreza N10, the latest derivative of the car which Martin Rowe drove to victory in the 2003 Production World Rally Championship, teams can now buy a base car and a national car to suit their budgets and levels of competition direct from Prodrive.

Base car

The base car costs just £19,750 (excluding fees and registration). This is the Japanese specification WRX STi on which the N10 is homologated. For more technical information click here.

National car

The national car costs £60,000. This car is very similar to the full international specification car except that it comes with a standard road car engine and gearbox, but can easily be upgraded to a full international specification. For more technical information click here.

International car

The international car costs £85,000. This is the N10, the latest derivative of the car that won the Production World Rally Championship in 2003. For more technical information click here.

For more information about the Impreza N10 range please contact Alan McGuinness on:

T: +44 (0)1295 754126
E: [email protected]
"
85=$157,844.40 today
rz
edit: had the wrong conversion - need more sleep.
from:
http://www.xe.com
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
768 Posts
RE: GropeN $$

Randy - stop living in Clinton era.

- 85 000 Pounds is 160 000 Bush Pesos...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,246 Posts

·
1973 WRC POR
Joined
·
2,421 Posts
RE: GropeN $$

Randy:

To put these prices in perspective, I seem to recall that Pat Richard's current Group N car, which he used to win the SCCA Pro Rally Championship, was listed late last year on the Subaru Canada Rally Team website for $80,000 Cdn.

Doug Woods
 

·
Slid'n around 'n havin a ball
Joined
·
2,953 Posts
RE: GroupN $$

I don't know how I got involved in this other than offering a link.
But as long as I am...
There's no way to keep people who want to spend a lot of money from doing it. There are some ways to make it harder, but you can't stop it.
I raced a rich guy in a spec class once, how did he outspend? He had a pro crew that overhauled the car after every event, that's all he did. New matched parts and dyno time. Buy 50 pistons and pick four.
And he had a second car ready to go at the track too.
---
Now move to US rally.
SCCA = GN overall champion
ESRC = PGT overall champion
That's why I like this sport.
Money just helps you hit the trees harder.
rz
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,275 Posts
RE: GroupN $$

Well, perhaps the competitors can afford it because ARC has such good crowds, and offer good value for sponsors.

The Coopers Pale Ale Rally SA in July had a total of ~30,000 spectators. 6,000 attended the ceremonial start.

The single make series (the RS challenge) drew 16 entrants (they actually hit the per event cap for the single make series).

To put these numbers in perspective, this is in a country of 20 million people.

Also, CAMS/ARC have been working on how to lower costs, read this:
http://rallyforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=94156

You also have to remember that new cars in Australia are still fairly expensive to start with. An STi there costs AUD 56,600. That's about USD 43,000.

The big question is, do you need a top $$$ N9 or N10 Prodrive car to be competitive in Group N? It would appear not -- look at the Group N competitors we have had in the last year or two.

From what I can see, the rallying scene in Australia looks pretty healthy.

Glenn
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,407 Posts
RE: GroupN $$

>The Coopers Pale Ale Rally SA in July had a total of ~30,000
>spectators. 6,000 attended the ceremonial start.

How do they know? This is a problem we have had before...how do you know how many spectators you have for an event that doesn't sell admission (can't track the ticket sales).

I've never been able to get ANY attendance numbers for any US event. Not even Pikes Peak...a road that has one entrance gate...one way in, one way out.

Sorry for the tangent. Back on topic. GN cars suck. :)
 

·
don't cut
Joined
·
2,252 Posts
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a lot of the crazy costs in those prodrive cars due to weird stuff like gold plated connecters on the wiring harness and unobtanium bolts and hardware? In other words it's that last 1% in performance that costs 50% of the total.

On the other hand, I was told by top US driver that the Prodrive GrN car "pulled" harder than any of the domestically built GrN cars he had driven. So maybe there is some bang for the buck there. Dyno/mapping time isn't expensive in itself, but knowing how to map and what to do is priceless.

Bottom line: Prodrive can't afford to be making excuses for its cars. Their customers want to win, and can afford to do so.

Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
907 Posts
Subes Grp N are good cars but way too much $$ to build, primarly of you want the good bits you have to buy them overproced from Prodrive.
That is probalby why you see most Grp N teams in europe runing EVO's
similiar performance for almost 1/2 the cost.

Comparing new Grp N car cost with used WRC is like aples and oranges,
people forget to look at the runing costs of rally cars, unless they are planing on doing one event. Probably the single reason why my car is parked in the shop at the moment.

-george
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
240 Posts
You can spend a lot of money on anything. What matters is what you get out of it. With group N cars it?s not as much. Case in point.

?We knew at the start of the year that we?d have a very big problem at the end,? McShea said. ?I thought we?d be coming here with a realistic chance of winning, but unfortunately we ran completely out of money just before Corsica and it looked like we weren?t actually going to make it here. I phoned a few friends and let them know the situation, so a group of businessmen and a lot of the top competitors in Ireland put together a budget for me to be here.?

Do you honestly think Niall McShea spent as much on his car or running it as the Mitsubishi Factory Team, RED, Toshi Arai or anyone else he was competing with? No way. But he still won. The reason cost/benefit, they spent lots and got little in return for it.

If you read through the descriptions of the National and International GN cars from Prodrive the difference between the two is a clutch, Dog Box, Carbon fiber bits and a heated windshield. The clutch $1000 max? Dog box $30,000 max that leaves $20,000 for carbon fiber bits and windshield which I have no doubt they can spend but has little to no effect. The weight has to stay the same FIA Homologation minimum, the only thing that allows you is to put it somewhere else. Yeh that dose effect performance but not much when you consider how small the weight is relative to that of the car and how little you moved it down. Gain on Electric windshield: negative speed, on the premise that you are afraid to roll because the damn windshield is so expensive, thus slowing you down. Maybe the insurance company will require that one ; )
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
192 Posts
Some examples of Prodrive pricing (converted from UK pounds):

GKN heavy duty front halfshaft $2400 each

N10 Dogbox $25,000

Shift linkage for above box $1500

Engine ECU $4250

Aluminum Sumpguard & reinforcement bar $1150

Steering Quick Rack LHD $4615

Engine rebuild cost $11,100 w/o damage or $22,200 with damage

Surcharge for using Prodrive's engine loom, ECU, and turbo during engine rebuild (if you fail to send your own back) $3700

Ohlins suspension rebuild $185 - $555 per strut depending on condition

Hell....need a new maplight:
Avanti maplight (fitted with 2-pin OE connector & Raychem DR-25 heatshrink) $133

Is there any wonder why it costs so much to buy and run a Prodrive built grN car? Is there any reason why a car of the same level can't be built for 1/2 to 2/3 the cost? (aside from the fact that Prodrive has exclusive rights to distribute any Subaru components from Pectel, Alcon, Ohlins, etc.)

--Dave
www.rallispec.com
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
803 Posts
there are lots of cars cheaper than the prodrive cars

in Australia, Chris Atkinson's car is the ONLY prodrive car and the reason (maybe incorrectly, but whatever) that a lot of people say he came onto the scene. As many people know, get the best car you can afford (if you can afford to) and see what happens.

Niall McShea's car is NOT a prodrive car, its toshi arai's 2003 car, and I know what they were asking for it

his car was run by people I know, not Top Run and not prodrive qand not Syms, and it wasn't the top budget, but it was way more than the USA guys are spending

the australian championship (since I seem to be the ONLY PERSON IN THE CONTINENT) that has run there in the last few years, is 20 times more healthy than the US series. Privateers were in the running there, and they had 3 factory teams this year (with up to 3 cars in more than one team in more than one circumstance). And yes there were at least that many PAYING spectators at the superspecial that i was at, so I have no idea what the off the cuff reference was to 'how would they know'.

finally, contrary to popular belief, there are multiple sources for many grp n subaru parts. Evos _used_ to be the thing, now clapped out soobs with ecus from australia and gearboxes from czechoslovakia are the in thang

just some facts for the mis-informed.

And as per my car, it was asking price 80k cdn with the US conversion at the time to around 50k, and there is only ONE prodrive component on my whole car, otherwise asking price WOULD HAVE BEEN twice that. And if I could afford it, I would have gotten a Prodrive engine and ECU, because I've driven one and know what they are like. But I couldn't, and did the tuning myself. Worked good enough. Don't confuse the tuning company with the car.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
724 Posts
Pat is correc there are plenty of ways to skin a cat. Toshi's car though not a Prodrive car the car was caged by prodrive welders that were flown to Japan (I know the guys that went) and they do a very good job. There are plenty of suspension choices (Pat I believe ran Reigers?) which are very good as well and much cheaper (well not much cheaper but a bit). There are ways to source everything for a good price and the engiens are very good though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
803 Posts
umm, I am not sure if you know this but Toshi used 3 cars last year (yeah, I know, riduculous, but its not like he was paying)... and the scenario you are talking about is not this particular car (the one that ended up in Niall's hands).

starting in sweden he used the '02 bugeye, then to a new shape from NZ onwards, then the car was 'retired' after Cyprus until the rally hokkaido, and driven in honour of Possum (his crew and team). A different car was used after Cyprus. I've said enough, but what I can emphasize is that many people source many subaru things (including 'subaru' types) not all from a single source.

-pat
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
Many years ago in Athletic events like the Shot Putt, Discus and Javelin, all competitors were required to put their implements into a "pool". Theoretically, any competitor could use any of the implements in the "pool". Of course they never did but it was Athletics way of trying to keep the playing field level.

Now here's a curly idea for ya. All cars have standard specs, after going thru scrutineering, the cars go into a pool, the drivers draw lots for which car they drive. The crews get a couple of hours to fit their seats, sponsors signage etc.etc..

We get back to driver ability, not who has the most money. Lets face it, who's gonna spend money for someone else to win!!!!

Well, we can dream huh????


Don
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
724 Posts
Pat I know that they did at least two shells for Toshi, but if memory serves me correctly you are right and that is not the one that Niall got. They did the cars that UMS ran for Toshi at one point.
 
1 - 20 of 29 Posts
Top