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Pete Morris (building "Son of CoROLLa").Not enough praise can be heaped on Mike and Paula this weekend. I have yet to see a post that opposes what they have done. That's a good sign. Kurt and his merry band of followers have brought this on themselves and I have a feeling it will soon lead to his hasty demise. We need people who can lead, not pander to the whims of those with the most money. Club rally will survive and for crying out loud, let's rid the world of this PRO Rally garbage. You do your own thing and we'll do what we do best, HAVE FUN CHEAPLY! I would like Spitzner to come out in public and announce to one and all that he was wrong in taking the direction he did and then RESIGN. Steve, you can do the same thing. I don't care that your background was drag racing. 4 second orgasms????? This is RALLYING! A world apart and a better and cheaper one to boot. SCCA needs new leadership and the way things are going, they are going to suffer. I don't care who's toes I step on. I am behind the little guys every time and you can take that to the bank! CLUB RALLY RULES!
 

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First, I'd like to say that the Rim organisers did what they had to do, and I'm glad to see that ClubRally has grown enough to support two day events. I'd also like to thank those organisers for striving to put on the best event they can, Pro or not.

ClubRally needs ProRally just as much as ProRally needs ClubRally. If all the rallies in the national series dropped their 'Pro' status, where would all the top competitors go, and what would happen to all that went into getting ProRally where it is now? How long would it be before we all cry "let's rid the world of this single tier garbage"?

So before we all follow the current fad by cheering for the demise of ProRally and insulting all the guys who are managing the series, many of whom are also volunteers, let's do something constructive and find the problem and try to fix it. Rim dropping from ProRally will definitely send a message to the SCCA, the PRB and sponsors that the events themselves need more support to keep the series healthy--maybe it's time to start paying orgainisers for the great work they are doing (often taking time off their real jobs) for the rally community, and maybe there will be enough resorces to do such a thing in the near future. Any organisers care to chime in here?

And let's thank all the organisers who are still willing to put up with all the red tape that goes with putting on a ProRally these days.

Will MacDonald
1968 Volvo 144
 

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I have yet to hear anyone say they want ProRally to suffer, quite the opposite they are applauding the support for ClubRally. I think they are also commenting on the Captain of the ship who seems to be steaming straight for an iceburg and does not care.
 

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Mike and Paula did what they felt they had to do, but if all the other rallies followed suit it would do more harm than good. Yes, the SCCA needs to re-evaluate what they are doing, but rallying is just gaining momentum. Without Pro Rally and the Dog and Pony show, NO ONE will be able to get any sponsors, because NO ONE will care about the sport because there will be NO coverage. And all the Pro Rally people with money and their big fast cars will end up competing in the club rallies and then everyone will be complaining that they don't have the money to keep up and we will be right back to where we are now. Come on people, this all works in the rest of the world (supposedly)They have their big show rallies and they have smaller rallies with the people just out to have fun. Maybe, people from the SCCA and the organizers need to spend some time overseas and take some lessons. How do they do it in Europe? If it is working for them, why can't we take their lead? What I don't get is why aren't the SCCA listening, they are representing the people aren't they? It should have never even come to this, and I don't think it should be entirely the organizers job to fight this battle. Maybe, a petition or sit in is needed, or a competitors strike-call your congressman!!
 

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>sign. Kurt and his merry band of followers have brought this
>on themselves and I have a feeling it will soon lead to his
>hasty demise. We need people who can lead, not pander to the
>whims of those with the most money. Club rally will survive
>and for crying out loud, let's rid the world of this PRO
>Rally garbage. You do your own thing and we'll do what we do
>best, HAVE FUN CHEAPLY! I would like Spitzner to come out in
>public and announce to one and all that he was wrong in
>taking the direction he did and then RESIGN.
Oi! I was thinking if he had any honor, he would do that and then do ritual sepukku, you know, swish slice, hari-kiri.

Steve, you can
>do the same thing. I don't care that your background was
>drag racing. 4 second orgasms????? This is RALLYING! A world
>apart and a better and cheaper one to boot. SCCA needs new
>leadership and the way things are going, they are going to
>suffer. I don't care who's toes I step on. I am behind the
>little guys every time and you can take that to the bank!
>CLUB RALLY RULES!

right! Time to put the CLUB into scCa.
















John Vanlandingham
 

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>First, I'd like to say that the Rim organisers did what they
>had to do, and I'm glad to see that ClubRally has grown
>enough to support two day events.

Will, you have shown many times a lack of experience in the really strange things you have said and I have dismissed them as simply inexperience, and you having a big imagination (the reference to the current cars approaching the performance of the Group B cars was just too absurd to comment on) but get this straight: There have been stand alone club, formerly know as Divisional, rallies since the first one I went to in 1984. Double divisionals have been the norm here in the NW at least half the time.
The so called national, or "Pro" series is built on the foundation known as club rally.
To boost the numbers of entries and get around intractable problems of seeding, the seeding in club and "pro" has been intergrated, a de facto acknowledgement of the fact that there is no difference between the two, just the distance of the tow, and the obscene extortionate entry fees, sticker package, numbers etc.

Got it?




>
>ClubRally needs ProRally just as much as ProRally needs
>ClubRally.
Wrong,we can and should concentrate on club events; the whole thing is a mess because of the lack of not just club rallies but the lack of institutional structure provided by CLUBs.

The whole so called PRO bullsheeeeet is a phony ass ploy predicated on pandering to the insatiable appetite of Americans for self aggrandizment and self delusion.
Splitting the finite organisational energy and talent into two areas when there is barely skills and talent and experience to sustain us at current levels is folly.



>
>So before we all follow the current fad by cheering for the
>demise of ProRally and insulting all the guys who are
>managing the series, many of whom are also volunteers, let's
>do something constructive and find the problem and try to
>fix it.
Kid, the anger of most is directed squarely at the paid employess, specificly former Media flunky, the horribly ironicly missnamed Spitzner. He came in with ZERO,ZILCH,NADA, NIENTE, NO experience, in any form whatsoever in building, racing, competeing as a driver, or co driver or organising a rally car or even, as far as he said to us in an nauseatingly arrogant taunt, competed on a stinking skateboard.
He brayed about his unbelievably amazing record of unimagineable success and success, triumph to triumph... "Bringing in nearly $500,000 worth of sponsorships" to a series he said one or two lines earlier "was already sinking". Bombast, or bullsheeeet?

What is known is while a paid employee Spitzner has failed miserably to bring in a series title sponsor, possibly a mere unfortunate co-incidence.How does the guy how crowed about having "the chops to get the job done....and that's not a vacuous boast." explain the complete FAILURE to bring a SERIES TITLE SPONSOR in all these 3 and a half years?
Beeeg fecking deal that Fram and Sunoco are "sponsors", we are supposed to pay for the stupid package of stickers and then we must run the stickers. GOT THAT? I get no discount, no coupons, I PAY FOR THEIR STICKERS TO DEFACE MY CAR.

What we have gotten is confusion, dissemblance, backtracking without conceding or acknowledging error, doubling or more increase in costs, and a percieved pandering to the wishes of a group of unidentified individuals known as the manufacturers cabal, and brainless assertions reagarding unknown levels of participation (yeah, unknown cause der Spitzner has only been around for 3 years).

The move to volantarily drop so called "Pro" status should be read as a repudiation and rejection of the program pushed by and we presume cooked up by Spitzner, and his guide John MacArthur.


















John Vanlandingham
 
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My take

Pete:

I agree with you that Mike and Paula made the proper, though difficult, decision to keep Rim as a club event, even to the exclusion of the Pros. I agree too that the decision has significant implications and repercussions and is ultimately for the good of the sport, especially in our neighborhood.

The organizers are the heart of our efforts to rally--they amass huge numbers of volunteers, expend countless hours of effort in order to build a fun, successful event. I know that you work hard on organizing Treeline, and I appreciate and respect the hard work you and all the other organizers do to make it possible for me to strap on a helmet and tear along dirt roads around the country.

I disagree, however, that we can trash the pro series.

It's old news, still debated, but what we need is a truly pro series for the manufacturers, a national series for club racers who are willing to travel the entire country, and a geo-centric series for the local rally communities.

All three series can peacefully coexist and support one another and help each other to grow. The problem is that we're trying to shoe-horn the national club racers into a pro category but without the resources of the truly pro guys like AV Sport or the manufacturers.

As for Kurt.... I confess that I supported Kurt for a long time and was willing to give him a chance to prove himself for our sport. Just because he doesn't have a background in rally doesn't mean he can't learn about it, adopt our passion, and support it. I didn't have a rally background either until I got into it. (Yeah, its a truism, but we all have to start somewhere.)

Even though Kurt and I have since crossed swords on more than one occasion, I still believe he's working towards what he thinks is best for the sport. I disagree on some directional issues, but I don't question his motivation. He may not have been born into rally, but he is giving it his best. Is his best good enough? He's playing to a tough audience. Is he the right guy for the job? He was the best we could find and deserves credit for fully immersing himself into the fray.

Like I said, I still see plenty of issues in our sport. It's important though that I stress that my issues are not with the person running the show, but with some of the decisions that are being made, and the process and inputs for those decisions. Kurt has a lot of guts to stand as a target for so long and I refuse to attack him personally. Personal attacks do no good, nor are they useful in getting positive results from anyone, especially the target. I believe it's far better to work on improving our sport, using all the channels that we as members have available, including the rally director, the rally dept, the rally board, the stewards, the SCCA's board of directors, and the president.

As for Steve.... I remain confident in his leadership. My background is road racing, but I love rally. Should someone from drag racing be denied the same opportunity to discover their passion for our sport? The record shows that he's more than just an administrative guy. At his first rally (Prescott 2000, I think) he went out and worked stages with Ray and Roger. His task is difficult--keeping 60,000+ members happy while keeping the club viable, welcoming, and growing. Steve recognizes that our club must still be run similar to a business or it will die. We need new "customers" and rally is providing an ever-larger portion of that base.

His job is especially difficult because he has to juggle rally, road racing, solo, road rally, special events, and all the pro stuff too. If keeping these different communities isn't tough enough, envision for a moment the breadth of his audience--from the guys who founded the club in the depths of World War II, to the rich guys for whom racing budgets mean nothing, to the people who choose tires over that new refrigerator for the spouse, to the old geezers in their vintage Sprites to the college kids in their Miatas and WRXs, from the arch-conservatives to the arch-liberals.

The SCCA invited Steve to lead us into the new millenium because they had confidence that he can leverage his background for the betterment of our club, and because they knew he was a "clubbie" inside even though he might not yet have known it. I continue to remain optimistic that, with proper input from the membership--as well as the manufacturers, who are also important--Steve will make things happen, and motivate his staff (our staff), to make them happen in a positive way.

Ours is a complex organization, with complex challenges. Each of our oxen is gored from time to time, and those damned horns hurt like hell. But it's just like rolling your car into a little ball. You've got to climb out, rebuild, and rally again. Our team experienced a miserable string of DNF's in 2000, but I'm still climbing back into a car. Our sport may have suffered a DNF or two in recent times, but we've got to open the hood, fix the problem, and charge forward again.

We've had tremendous growth and progress in the last few years. We've also had some real issues crop up, some serious things that need redress, some serious items that need to be improved or reconsidered. Personal attacks will not fix these things. Personal effort will.

Yours in the sport,

John
SoPac ClubRally Steward
 

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RE: My take

Let me sey that I have been around Rallying for 10 years and it happend that I was lucky inough to compete here and back in Europe.Kurt is the Guy Who is trying to make a premiere series and so far he succeded (Don't we have more guys comming from Euroepe?).The pro in each and every country is for big boys with big $$$ .and if you't have it than You can go and play for less in divisional and there you can go to have fan -drive 25 years old volvo and have you wife or brother to change wheels .But pro is not about having fan and i don"t beliefe any body Who is in top 20 in any country is going to the rally to having fan.
They are going to drive as competitive as possible ,represent Team and do the Job as a Team,driver co driver.Kurt is trying to get money and Series Sponsor as much as any of Pro Rally Teams for Themself .How difficult is this days toget a $1000.00 from any body ,many of us know. so for those Who saying where is the Money?-KURT. I have just one quation how many teams are supported by sponsors exluding manufacturers teams.and You think that all of us (drivers ,teams ,)not asking potencial sponsors for thetrs support?
 

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RE: My take

Kurt is only benefiting for himself and not for the entire sport of rallying and especially not for the club rally guys/gals. He does not care about them at all because to him they do not bring in the sponsors and the TV coverage. All he cares about what is for the good for himself and only for himself and Pro Rally itself. I know that for a fact. I could tell you lots of factual information, but it only will make things worse.

The rally community needs a Rally director that has a BACKGROUND IN RALLYING and has actually helped put on a event whether it was a club rally or Pro rally combo. Who has a passion to make things happen to enhance the sport to another level for BOTH CLUB RALLY AND PRO RALLY, BUT AT THE SAME TIME PUT A LOT MORE EFFORT TO HELP OUT ON ALL CLUB RALLY SERIES...THEY ARE AS I SAY AGAIN THE BACKBONE TO RALLYING. ALSO DO NOT FORGET THE VOLUNTEERS AND KEY VOLUNTEERS THAT put in endless hours on the day of the event whether it is 2-4 days and BY DOING THIS... TAKING EITHER VACATION TIME OR JUST PLAN OLD TIME-OFF WITH NO PAY. They do this because they have the same passion for the sport as the drivers and co-drivers of rallying.So you help out as much as you can to the organizers to give them funds to off-set cost for the volunteers to have a worker bag,room rebates, etc.... but when someone says that the volunteers should feel priveliged to even work a national event...well now you have stepped over the boundaires. If you did not have the volunteers Kurt you would not have a rally. If you listen to the organizers the volunteers are getting less and less. I know the drivers and the organizers are very grateful of the volunteers and the key co-organizers because they do whatever it takes to make them feel special and welcomed. I do not see SCCA giving out t-shirts to the volunteers and/or decal stickers to show that they are grateful for their time. I know this for a fact because I try to call SCCA rally office and they told me that they may bring a couple to give out. It all comes from the organizers funds in order to show their appreciation and believe me that do not regret doing that at all. Oh and these funds are from getting sponsors themselves in the area where the event will run.

Don't get me wrong I know that his positon is got to a tough one and you can not please everyone all the time, but when you have unhappy organizers and key volunteers and club rally drivers/co-drivers upset then something is totally wrong. Kurt has known about this for a long time and refuses to change things around. If he was going to change things that should have happen two years ago when organizers went to him about problems. Nothing was solved and was even ignored.

I could ramble on but I do not want to put you to sleep. If you can see a difference in Kurt and SCCA on how they are going to help support rallying..it is going to have to take a 360 degree turn on Kurt's part in order for him to put confidence back into the rally community that he is there to fully support rallying in all levels not just one aspect of it. Then I will fully support him in his endeavors.
Also do not get me wrong about Pro Rally. I am glad to see it is growing and helping to make rallying recognized here in the states, but I do not want to see the organizers and club rallyiest to be smugged because of it. There has got to be a way to put a balance to both of the series. If it can happen over in Europe; it can happen here.

Oh by the way...everyone is entitled to their opinion if you are pro and con to the Kurt situation and should be respected. That is the only way things can change and/or get solved for the improvement of the sport. That is all I have to say.

Denise McMahon
Co-Organizer
Rim Of The World:)
 

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RE: My take

Just sit back and take a libertarain point of view here, folks ......it's just plain old supply & demand at work. No need for name-calling.

Obviously, the organizers did what they HAD to do - their time & effort are incredibly valuable. I've worked enough events to be impressed with how much behind-the-scenes labor is required.

If enough DEMAND exists for "Pro" Rally & its role as a marketing tool (judging by the burgeoning popularity in recent years, I'd say it does), then the manufacturers will gladly step in with funds to ensure the organizers and volunteers want to step in.

Negotiations go best when both sides are amicable. Just like in labor relations, both parties have a mutual goal. Threats simply put people on the defensive. Nobody's at war here... their just needs to be some reward for an otherwise thankless job.

Many say we don't need the manufacturers. I would surely hope that involvement by them would "grease the skids" of obtaining road access (something we ALL want) in the future.... another mutual goal.

Feel free to shoot down my comments. :D

-Don
 

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Do you get more than points for your effort? :)
Yes, the points are only good if you ARE actively competing. :-(

Do you get fame and fortune from it? More like pain and headaches...
 

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whew...

oh yeah, the fame alone has been very lucritave. The book deal for my memoirs, and my rookie card is now trading at $250.00 in the latest Beckett... :) Yeah, suppose I should actually start competing to take advantage of those points.. I am gonna try to organize a few more club events soon too. Maybe instead of buying a championship I can organize my way to one... :)
 

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Pete,

Why don't you and the other Sopac organisers get together with the Norpac organisers and create a Western championship that is a Combined Clubrally championship.

This championship would be made up of combined finishes between the two regions. Require a certain number of co-efficients have to be ran in both regions to qualify for the championship. Also allow 2 out of area events (non Norpac/Sopac) for those of us that might travel east one time.

That way those of us that live on the West coast can have a championship where we travel a bit, but don't break the bank trying to win the new almost all EASTERN ProRally championship.
 

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>>
>That way those of us that live on the West coast can have a
>championship where we travel a bit, but don't break the bank
>trying to win the new almost all EASTERN ProRally
>championship.

that is because the East Coast is better}>
 

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I was just teasing:+ Actually there are three events on each coast and three in the middle, although I will admit that Michigan is a bit East biased, but overall it is quite spread out- until now, but when Prescott was included and Cherokee wasn't it was even
 
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