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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok, here is a little thing that has been bothering me for a few weeks.

Whats the deal with Gp2?

I mean entries for national events.

Sno-Drift - 2 Entrants (1 Finisher)
Oregon - 1 Entrant (0 Finishers)

Thats pretty weak. I compared to a few years ago..

2002 Sno-Drift - 6 Finishers
2002 Oregon - 5 Finishers
2001 Sno-Drift - 8 Finishers


And so on. Entries as a whole have shrunk as well I guess, and some of those entries were "Factory" entries that have now gone, or moved to Gp5.

Canada Gp2 seems to be healthy. The rest of the world has huge Gp2(ish) classes. Regionals seem to be healthy.

I dont wanna compete in a class by myself.

Dont people understand a hi-po 2wd car is way more beeeechin than a weak awd rig.

2wd, tite plate diff, close box, 180hp, decent brakes, screaming throttle bodies.. BWAAAA. A real exciting, loud, race car for the same price as a "production" AWD car.
 

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straight at T
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>Ok, here is a little thing that has been bothering me for a
>few weeks.
>
>Whats the deal with Gp2?
>
>I mean entries for national events.

It may just be that the majority of Gp2 competitors don't see any value in running national. Remember too that 2001/2002 was basically pre-WRX, and the cost of entering nationals wasn't as high (the entry fees have increased by ~50% since then).

You'll notice that there were no more than 3 Gp2 entries at any SCCA national last year. BTW. I ran P at 3 events last year - the largest field we had was 3 cars, too.

Adrian
 

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Mä meen vittu sinne!
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I think if you were to look back through the last 4 years you would see a pretty constantly decreasing trend. There's probably quite a few reasons for the decline. Spitzner years definitely would have had no positive impact on any 2WD class for the most part. Lack of video coverage and magazine coverage definitely is a hindrance in terms of getting sponsorship. The fixed costs for running an Open class car vs. a G2 car (hotel, entry, travel, etc) are about the same though. So excluding the cheaper maintenance and build costs for G2 over Open your looking at close to the same costs to run the series with much less return.
Regional series, such as the Cascade Cup, Group F, and the Colorado Hill Climb Association, should help revive the 2WD classes. We have something like 3-4 Open class cars, 2 G5 cars, 4-5 PGT cars, and 10-15 Group 2 cars in Colorado now so the class is still healthy at the regional level. I think the PNW would have a similar distribution in their classes based upon the results and entry lists I have looked at.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I wouldnt agree with the press coverage.

If your running top 5 or so overall, than yes, lots of coverage.

But I would say I a top placing Gp2 competitor, like say, someone like Mr. Lurch has recieved plenty more coverage than any midpack PGT person... I saw him on TV lots of times, and in magazines! :)

And if your running top 5, your spending a crapload more than what it takes to win Gp2.

P, I never checked. No offense to P drivers, but those cars are a snoozer.. :)

I always though Gp2 was exciting because you can have a real RACE car, that is fast, handles good, stops good, is exicting to watch and hear rippin through the forest.

Entries for a regional are like, $100 less than a national. Entering the National gives you a chance at a much broader coverage spectrum (I guess we have yet to see if Gp2 will be covered on TV), sometimes you get a few more miles too.
 

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>I always though Gp2 was exciting because you can have a real
>RACE car, that is fast, handles good, stops good, is exicting
>to watch and hear rippin through the forest.

Matt:

I hesitate in responding, since I know that I will get a lot of flak, but here goes.

Inside the car, Group 2 is incredibly exciting and competitive. Probably the best bang for the buck. Hopefully, Group 2 and Group F fields will increase again over time.

Outside the car, Group 2 is an absolute snore-fest. If it contained more RWD cars, then there would be more potential for excitement.

In Canada, I get to watch some of the best Group 2 drivers around such a Nichols, Olsen, Tessier, and now Sprongl and Bacon. But, once you have seen Sylvain Erickson go by, well, Group 2 looks rather boring.

The Coupe de Quebec has one hour of television coverage of each of the five events this year. Only Group 2 (and production cars) are shown. I forced myself to watch the first show all the way through to the end. I turned the second show off after 10 minutes. Really, it was totally unwatchable. That being said, I am sure that the people competing were have a great time and enjoying themselves.

Putting on my flak jacket.

Doug Woods
 

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I just think that the guys are going regional, as it makes more sense for them. In my mind, there are only 2 reasons to go national...well, 2 and a half.

Reason 1 is you are sponsored and are trying to reach a national audience...or any audience through the coverage.

Reason 2 is you are fronting a season with your money while you are working HARD toward getting sponsorship for the following season. Many have done this and have not found the fruit, so they go back to regional.

The other half reason is ego, or trying to build a racing resume...which really ties into reason 2 somehow. That's not a put-down, by the way. Ego is what drives motorsport the world over. You may think its money, but there are more people going broke in race cars than not. The money is a need that rises from the desire for a faster car and more race weekends to feed an ego somewhere.

There is a nice movement in the Group F community that wants competition for its own sake and is largely self-funded. They can achieve their goals at the regional level. This looks to be growing. Even Cawlin McClaaairy dumped his turbo in favor of a tree-oh-too in his Sierra.

G2 was the most logical class to put a Protege into, as Mazda did not want to build a "4wd special" that had nothing in common with the cars on the showroom in 2001. G2 was the logical place to put a 2wd Lancer when manufacturer rules dictated that companies competing for the overall man. title had to have a 2-car team and, in 2002, Mitsu did not have the budget for 2 open class cars. And Dodge had no desire at first to enter G2 officially, but Chris built the car and turned some heads with it.

Money wins. The money goes where the marketing goes. And that is why you see less "professional" (and I use the term loosely) G2 efforts right now.

in my opinion.
 

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>>P, I never checked. No offense to P drivers, but those cars are a snoozer.. <<

Careful Matt! :) You must not have seen Tabor's Acura or the gentleman in Maine with the Dk Blue Toyota Celica. Both those P cars & drivers could whup alotta G2 folks. (and did/do)

This is another reason folks are calling for GF, to bring all 2wd together for more of a show, right?

JC
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www.gnimotorsports.com
 

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>I hesitate in responding, since I know that I will get a lot
>of flak, but here goes.

Aflak! Flak! Aflak!


>Inside the car, Group 2 is incredibly exciting and
>competitive. Probably the best bang for the buck.
....
>Outside the car, Group 2 is an absolute snore-fest.

Like I have said a zillion times......

"RALLY IN THE U.S. IS ***NOT*** A SPECTATOR SPORT!"

If rally in the U.S. ever becomes a big spectator sport rally will die forever (for everyone), because of the legal and environmental issues (real or perceived).

If someone wants to be on TV go run NASCAR or F1.
 

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It is a slow year for rally here in the PNW Gp2 class. We have had about 1/2 the local cars show up to events so far this year.

Our one National Event on the west coast, OR Trails is diffrent - it is a very expensive rally and the National cost about $500 more. I still wonder why I wasted the money - because that is what it was - a wast there is no reason I should have entered the national as the only Gp2 car what was the point, I thought others might come and play when I entered but I was wrong.

I love my Gp2 car, it is very fun to drive, it goes real good, stops well and sounds awsome. I had an open class car and felt it was just too easy to drive, not all that fun really, when I sold it I decided to go into 2wd. I am very happy with the car and the on stage experiance but am disapointed in the lack of traveling Gp2 cars and the completely indiferent coverage of the 2wd classes, hell I was running a strong rally at OR Trails prior to lossing the altinator but the photographers hardly even bothered to take a photo.

At the end of the day I reconize my Gp2 car cost about 2/3 to 3/4 the cost of say Mark Urtec's GpN car asking price and cost about the same to run, so I can see how most people would pay the extra $10,000 for the GpN car because at least then you might get some press, some support and will have a lot more cars to race. We all hoped for a one make class and we got it, Subaru WRX...

I think 2wd will be strong at the local level for some time to come but I doubt it will amount to much at the National level with out some help from out side the class.

Matt, I am thinking about a tow out to race you some in the next 12 months...

Derek
 

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>P, I never checked. No offense to P drivers, but those cars
>are a snoozer.. :)

Yes... especially when they're [A HREF="http://www.rallyscoring.com/results/2004/TallPines/TallPines2004LiveUpdate.src.htm"]beating up on G2 cars[/A] :p

Robin
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
>>P, I never checked. No offense to P drivers, but those cars
>>are a snoozer.. :)
>
>Yes... especially when they're [A
>HREF="http://www.rallyscoring.com/results/2004/TallPines/TallPines2004LiveUpdate.src.htm"]beating
>up on G2 cars[/A] :p

Aha, Oh dang.

I didnt say they couldnt be faster, they just dont sound or look as sweet. :)

Perhaps I should have included P in my original post.

Gp2 and P... Whats the story?
 

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Again, not to pick on ya, but that darn Toyota Celica in Maine was ripping AT LEAST 8,000RPM & more all the time & was really cool looking (IMHO).

If I recall, he finished right behind Lurch. THey were both peelin those RPMs sky high. Pretty spiffy.

ALl I'm sayin is P & G2 should really be combined somehow to get all the good 2wd'ers rippin in the same class against each other.


JC
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In an effort to beef up the Grp. 2 field I will tell you that the current owner of my Acura is looking to sell it. Just needs some TLC but is mechanically perfect. Lurch can reply on my behalf.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Guys,

Seriously, I was just poking some fun at P cars.

We all know driver makes the biggest difference anyway.

I've been beaten by P cars lots of times, my car is almost a P car (If it wasnt for the acura motor, and the interior)

But really, a real well developed Gp2 car, all screaming through the forest, flames, glowin stuff, loud noises, pretty sweet.

I personally think they should be combined (And gp5 cars too, with a weight penalty)

Lets not turn my thread into a P pissing contest, cuz thats not what I meant, and thats not what this thread is about.

This thread is about the lack of Gp2 cars entering, and now, the lack of national entrants in the lower classes alltogether.

I guess the general consensus is.

National is a couple hundred (More out west) waste of money. No more promotion (I disagree), same stages, more money, so whats the point?

Perhaps someone could chime in, and mention whether or not it is planned to cover the "Lower" classes on the TV program this year. (If your drivin like a balls out fast gotta be on tv guy of course)

GpF!
 

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>If the sancitoing bodies want more entries in the 2wd classes.
> Why don't they provide discounted entry fees for cars
>entering those classes.
>
>Matt Smith

I LIKE it!!! Lower entries for the 2WD classes would reflect a more appropriate share of post-rally road repair costs, make things easier on the P & G2 newby's budgets, help convince more folks to move from the awd turbo classes to 2WD and maybe even assist a low budget team with finding their way to more rallies each year!

Halley ...
Brainstorming again ...
http://www.realautosport.com
 

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RE: Gp2.. What's the story? It's buried in the story of our culture

Matt, it IS more fun driving a WELL prepped normal aspirated car with a good engine and a good box simply because YOU MUST DO MORE, so when you do DO MORE, it is more fun.
But the reasons are multiple and have deep social roots, most of us are not like this completely typical, average Finnish guy here (who my sweet wife pointed out could be Kevin Hawkinson (oxo känt som Håkansson, that explains sumpin, eh?)
Typicql Finn or Swede working calmly on the latest trick item
[http://www.jvab.f4.ca/madfinnrallydriver.jpg]


Now it could be that this photo shows the major sociallogical difference and here for once I'm serious:

[http://www.jvab.f4.ca/euro_vs_america.jpg]

Collectively when I look at photos of US (me too) the majority look more like the gordita gringa than the rather typical Euro honey.

We're "consumers" who are fat and lazy and simply buying a car than makes OK ooomph without thinking or searching for parts or searching for power FITS the approach of most 'mericans.

Same with grip, no search, just buy.

Look at the demographics of GpF so far, younger guys who want to get started and are ITCHING for a fight, or older guys who have already done the dumb waste pickup truck loads of bundeled 20s thing and are NOW realising that fun can be had for a lot less money, but more PERSONAL INVOLVEMENT in ALL phases of the scene.


And moderators, be real and don't edit the photos, nothing most people wouldn't see at the local swimmin' hole.






John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

janvanvurpa (at) f4 (dot) ca

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 

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RE: Gp2.. What's the story? It's buried in the story of our culture

"If the sancitoing bodies want more entries in the 2wd classes. Why don't they provide discounted entry fees for cars entering those classes. You may not like the idea but it would work.


Matt Smith"

They do offer this discount...it is called a regional or "Club" level entry. The guys with sponsers or the ones trying to get them are paying the premium (at Rim it was $500 more plus a "Pro" licensce for driver and co-driver). For that extra fee they get tv coverage and probably more press total. That does not equate to faster stage times. although I bet in general it would. We are a club team (read CHEAP-ASSes) and our times were just at the top 10 overall on most stages at Rim (we are G2) and close to the leaders in our class that were running "Pro". There were a lot of G2 cars at Rim, however very few were "Pro".


Rem and Pamela Wyatt
RMD 406
85 GTI (under construction)
http://photos.yahoo.com/rembert
 
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