[Brian Scott]

So with some people all hot and bothered to make Gp N the Overall Championship class......

Where were all you guys the past few years?

I see Shane, Mark, Hoeck, and the others...don't mean to leave out the rest of Gp N but if all of you other guys are so fired up about Gp N,

Why didn't you build a car and Run Gp N for the $25,000????

Is it because you couldn't win overall?

Or is it because you don't want to be outspent in Open? Seems to me that at every rally Open is the largest class. It's easy to build a car rule-wise, fairly easy to enforce, etc.

I don't get it. I as someone who owns one of those EVVVVVIIILLLLL Open class EVO's have no desire to change anything on my car because suddenly all the internet shill decide that Open is too EVVVVVIIIIILLLLL.

Will I ever beat a WRC car? Nope
Will I ever beat that factories? Nope
Will I still rally even though my car can be outclassed if someone wants to spend? Yep

However, I like my car the way it is. I think most of the other Open EVO's and WRX's like it that way as well. Not sure many of us with actual cars that enter rallies are screaming and crying that our cars are too expensive and too whatever?

Brian

 

[Gravel Spray]

>So with some people all hot and bothered to make Gp N the
>Overall Championship class......

We are not talking about makeing "FIA GN" the NC class, We are talking about creating a class similar to the aussie ProtoN rules, as it lowers the overall costs needed to build and maintain a "capable" national championship level car.

_______________________________
>
>Where were all you guys the past few years?
>
>I see Shane, Mark, Hoeck, and the others...don't mean to
>leave out the rest of Gp N but if all of you other guys are
>so fired up about Gp N,
>
>Why didn't you build a car and Run Gp N for the $25,000????


Because the way the rules are in the book, it's very difficult to make legal a US car, or very expensive to build a proper GN car(but it's cheap to buy a old GN car). You'll remember the Snodrift GN meeting, it's clearly stated in fast track, not one car was 100% legal. I think that includes the above group of teams. If a simple rule change was made the above cars would be legal and your car could be made legal too.


>
>Is it because you couldn't win overall?
>
>Or is it because you don't want to be outspent in Open?
>Seems to me that at every rally Open is the largest class.
>It's easy to build a car rule-wise, fairly easy to enforce,
>etc.
>
>I don't get it. I as someone who owns one of those
>EVVVVVIIILLLLL Open class EVO's have no desire to change
>anything on my car because suddenly all the internet shill
>decide that Open is too EVVVVVIIIIILLLLL.

Well then, if you are not interested in serious competition with other drivers for the national championship, then don't worry about it, run your car as is. I' am not saying you can't run your car.
>
>Will I ever beat a WRC car? Nope
>Will I ever beat that factories? Nope
>Will I still rally even though my car can be outclassed if
>someone wants to spend? Yep

Club rally has everything you need then.
>
>However, I like my car the way it is. I think most of the
>other Open EVO's and WRX's like it that way as well. Not
>sure many of us with actual cars that enter rallies are
>screaming and crying that our cars are too expensive and too
>whatever?

If you want to participate in rallies for personal enjoyment, then by all means entery club rally as is, and you will have a great time. However, if you are interested in competition and running the full Prorally series and taking on the costs of running all those events, the travel involved along with the maintanence, then a ProtoN type of situation looks attractive when compared to building and competeing against a ProDrive WRC car over the course of a season.


Brian, with ProtoN rules, you could build a good capable car for under $100k easy, prolly buy one for $50k used. A while ago I saw an AD for your car, you stated you had $135k into it, is that the economical route? $135k and no chance of having more or less equal performance to the SRT?



Pete



>
>Brian

 

[gplsek]

HMM.... I don't understand why everyone thinks Grp. N is so expensive.
Maybe compared to running an old Audi 4000 or old Talon.

We run OPEN Class EVO and Grp N EVO and the N car was cheaper to build and definitely cheaper to run.

Yes, you can spend ton of $$ on N if you decide you want a dogbox, electronic dash and etc. But you can do the same in OPEN. In the end the grp N cars do not wear as much at evetns compared to the OPEN so your running cost during the year is MUCH lower

-george

 

[Tony Chavez]

I considered running Group N next year, but the problem is that very few cars are eligible for the class. Subaru WRX is the only US sold car currently homologated. The Evo VIII, US version is not homologated, therefore, to run an Evo in Group N, we would have to buy one outside he US.

If the rules would allowed all cars otherwise legal for the class, but with US specs to enter Group N (or whatever you want to call it), that class would be awesome to enter.

Tony Chavez

 

[John Vanlandingham]

>
>
>Well then, if you are not interested in serious competition
>with other drivers for the national championship, then don't
>worry about it, run your car as is. I' am not saying you
>can't run your car.

Pete, that is an enormous assumption on your part, it could possibly be that he's intersted in a driving comprtition, not a spending competition, and simply accepts, like most that the Importer Teams and the trustafarians will outspend in every area from motor to tires.
>>
>>Will I ever beat a WRC car? Nope
>>Will I ever beat that factories? Nope
>>Will I still rally even though my car can be outclassed if
>>someone wants to spend? Yep
>
>Club rally has everything you need then.

Pete! Stop that, you sound like Spitzner! Shame on you!
>>
>
>If you want to participate in rallies for personal
>enjoyment, then by all means entery club rally as is, and
>you will have a great time.

However, if you are interested
>in competition and running the full Prorally series and
>taking on the costs of running all those events,

Clearly you and Glen have been agreeing amongst yourselves about this point you have cooked up and a few others jave somehow erroneously decided is some measure of seriousness:
Doing the full series.

That's Hooooooey!
I may very well have reasons for entering just those 'National Championship' rallies in my sorta local area.
If I should have a win and a third and a fourth outa 8 or 9 events in my class at a National Championship (let's drop this imbecilic charade of calling it 'Pro' once and for all, 2 imported drivers does not make it 'Pro'.), I can demonstrate that the car build and driving skill is there for results, and that's enough for me.
YOU KNOW FULL WELL PETE YEAR END RESULTS MOSTLY INDICATES WHO TOWED OR MORE CORRECTLY HIRED SOMEBODY TO TOW THEIR CAR, that does not indicate seriousness, merely budget, especially as you and me and everybody else has seen how the bulk of the 'whole series tow-ers' drive.

And stop with this "well then Club rally is the place for you" stuff.

Anybody who enters on any day should be welcome, no phony label distinctions. Nate Tennis or even worse Sean Tennis drags out his car and is first Gp2 car then thats what it should read in the results.
Regardless of what box he ticked on the entry form for National or Divisional
>


John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/

 

[John Vanlandingham]

"Quasi-Aussie" class

>If the rules would allowed all cars otherwise legal for the
>class, but with US specs to enter Group N (or whatever you
>want to call it), that class would be awesome to enter.

Hey Tony
for discussions sake I think the semi-oafish-al name is
"Quasi-Ausssie" class, has a nice ring, eh?
>
>Tony Chavez
And if they'd let you swap in later tranni parts and real barakes and later intercooler, it would be cool wouldn't it, you Galant coul still be right in the middle of it.




John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/

 

[gplsek]

Tony:

I agree with you, but the US EVO can be modified/upgraded to the homologated version probably for less $$ and pain than bringing in a a car from overseas.

As for a US Grp N class we sort of have one, PGT. I belive we could make some changes to that class to make the cars more competetive but and to fit more US sold cars, but looks like most people are happy with current PGT rules (maybe not the restrictor).

-george

 

[derek]

>
>As for a US Grp N class we sort of have one, PGT. I belive
>we could make some changes to that class to make the cars
>more competetive but and to fit more US sold cars, but looks
>like most people are happy with current PGT rules (maybe not
>the restrictor).
>
>-george

A very intreting insight... I need to think about that for a bit. The current GpN rules alow a lot more stuff if it got holomoligated such as dog boxes and brakes for WRX and Evo's, PGT does not alow these things but could it let a bit more stuff in??? I do not know still thinking

Derek

 

[gplsek]

you don't have to run a dog box in grp N, it is an option.
but the US EVO does not meet homologation primarly because of the center diff. as we got stiffed and did not get the Active center diff. I belive the major difference between N and PGT now is that
in N you can run a different ECU (as long as it fits in the original box) this will allow you to tune the car to arround 280hp with 32mm restrictor VS the PGT standart ECU the 32mm restrictor kills the car.

-g

 

[Adrian Wintle]

>you don't have to run a dog box in grp N, it is an option.
>but the US EVO does not meet homologation primarly because
>of the center diff. as we got stiffed and did not get the
>Active center diff. I belive the major difference between N
>and PGT now is that
>in N you can run a different ECU (as long as it fits in the
>original box) this will allow you to tune the car to arround
>280hp with 32mm restrictor VS the PGT standart ECU the 32mm
>restrictor kills the car.

Plus, the current PGT rules allow non-turbo cars (like the 2.5RS) to be reasonably competetive. The moment you remove the restrictor or allow ECU freedoms you will change that.

Adrian

 

[mwilliams]

RE: Gp N....it does have an upside?

I see GpN, if executed and promoted properly, a great way to draw interest from EU, and central/south american entrants.

Someone with a GpN car for rent in the US might draw more potential interest from a foreign competitor than say someone with an "open" class car as the GpN platform is recognized and respected ('cept for the US crowd) world-wide.

The US will never get a WRC event unless we first begin to draw more entrants outside of our shores.

 

[Kartwheel]

RE: Gp N....it does have an upside?

We will never get a WRC round becaus there is no sponsorship money for it. The Mexican government, along with Corona, is making that WRC round possible. When Budwiser signs on then we might have a glimmer of hope, until then its a pipe dream.

 

[mwilliams]

RE: Gp N....it does have an upside?

>We will never get a WRC round becaus there is no sponsorship
>money for it. The Mexican government, along with Corona, is
>making that WRC round possible. When Budwiser signs on then
>we might have a glimmer of hope, until then its a pipe
>dream.

That's obvious. I am mearly hinting at the possible starting point.

Cart before the horse no doubt.

 

[Glenn Wallace]

I think if Grp N/ProtoN/Quasi-Aussie rules were adopted there has to be some common sense built into the eligibility (see Pat's post on chassis numbers for example).

Assuming the non-compliant part (viscous vs active center diff) does not provide a performance or reliability improvement, then why not let the car run?

If pure FIA Grp N were adopted that would be fairly difficult. I actually do like the PGT idea too -- my point is you need a formula that introduces some point at which additional $ spend is not worth it.

If you can afford to run some or all of the national series you can probably afford to build a Grp N-ish car for a reasonable sum. As George said, the Grp N running costs are lower too.

Regardless, if Subaru pulls out as an entrant, I think the SCCA should take some steps to ensure we have a championship that is more affordable to contest for privateers than open currently is, and also adopt rules that will allow closer and more exciting racing.

Glenn

 

[Gravel Spray]

>
>>
>>
>>Well then, if you are not interested in serious competition
>>with other drivers for the national championship, then don't
>>worry about it, run your car as is. I' am not saying you
>>can't run your car.
>
>Pete, that is an enormous assumption on your part, it could
>possibly be that he's intersted in a driving comprtition,
>not a spending competition, and simply accepts, like most
>that the Importer Teams and the trustafarians will outspend
>in every area from motor to tires.

John, you think building a GN performance level car, is more expensive than a open car. Please explain, keep in mind I'm talking about a car (in either class, that is capable of winning.
>>>
>>>Will I ever beat a WRC car? Nope
>>>Will I ever beat that factories? Nope
>>>Will I still rally even though my car can be outclassed if
>>>someone wants to spend? Yep
>>
>>Club rally has everything you need then.
>
>Pete! Stop that, you sound like Spitzner! Shame on you!

What? if a guy wants to rally a car for fun, and is not interested in placing in a national champ, club is perfect. How is this wrong?

>>>
>>
>>If you want to participate in rallies for personal
>>enjoyment, then by all means entery club rally as is, and
>>you will have a great time.
>
>However, if you are interested
>>in competition and running the full Prorally series and
>>taking on the costs of running all those events,
>
>Clearly you and Glen have been agreeing amongst yourselves
>about this point you have cooked up and a few others jave
>somehow erroneously decided is some measure of seriousness:
>Doing the full series.
>
>That's Hooooooey!
>I may very well have reasons for entering just those
>'National Championship' rallies in my sorta local area.
>If I should have a win and a third and a fourth outa 8 or 9
>events in my class at a National Championship (let's drop
>this imbecilic charade of calling it 'Pro' once and for all,
>2 imported drivers does not make it 'Pro'.), I can
>demonstrate that the car build and driving skill is there
>for results, and that's enough for me.
>YOU KNOW FULL WELL PETE YEAR END RESULTS MOSTLY INDICATES
>WHO TOWED OR MORE CORRECTLY HIRED SOMEBODY TO TOW THEIR CAR,
>that does not indicate seriousness, merely budget,
>especially as you and me and everybody else has seen how the
>bulk of the 'whole series tow-ers' drive.


I agree john, The series champs are typically the people how have been able to AFFORD to travel. By lowering the costs of the full national series(lower operational costs in nat. champ class), it would be easier to do more events? If you want to run a couple events in the Nat series, go ahead, see where you fit with the travel guys. Hell, you don't even need to pay the "pro" entry, just enter club and add the times up your self? Is this not enough? is it you want a ProRally number backer?

What is camparing times with a WRC car going to show you? Nothing, but if we had ProtoN, it would be easier for a average joe to get the same level of performance as the Manu teams. Then the guy might have a chance to gauge pace and say, shit, I was within a few seconds of ramana. Way it is right now it would be minutes.
>
>And stop with this "well then Club rally is the place for
>you" stuff.
>
>Anybody who enters on any day should be welcome, no phony
>label distinctions. Nate Tennis or even worse Sean Tennis
>drags out his car and is first Gp2 car then thats what it
>should read in the results.
>Regardless of what box he ticked on the entry form for
>National or Divisional

I agree, The results on an event website should show overall results with everyone, then a national set, and a club set. The term ProRally is only there for national points keeping reasons.


Pete
:7

 

[Lurch]

RE: "Quasi-Aussie" class

In theory, the Australian model of Proto-N sounds kinda neat.

It would allow all types of cars, old and new, and look to GN performance specs for ruling on what parts/technologies are allowed.

In practice, I see this as very hard to implement because every car will have a slightly different spec to work to...really not unlike the real GN homologation process. It would be extremely hard to know what is or is not allowed unless it is just a restrictor rule and everything else open...kinda like our Open.

We don't have the manpower to properly tech the cars as it is. This model would have us checking different things for different cars to keep them competitive and would be a lot like World Challenge. (Mazda is allowed to do this, this and this, but BMW can just do this and that.) It makes for very competitive racing, but requires constant adjustment a la NASCAR to keep the teams competitive with each other.

"The difference between theory and practice is that in theory, practice follows theory. In practice, it never does."

 

[Gravel Spray]

RE: Gp N....it does have an upside?

>>We will never get a WRC round becaus there is no sponsorship
>>money for it. The Mexican government, along with Corona, is
>>making that WRC round possible. When Budwiser signs on then
>>we might have a glimmer of hope, until then its a pipe
>>dream.
>
>That's obvious. I am mearly hinting at the possible
>starting point.
>
>Cart before the horse no doubt.


I don't think we will ever get a WRC round. It would be very difficult, and like Brian says, it woul dtake Budwieser, or Microsoft to plunck down $20mill as an investment to develope a national to be run several years before anyhope of an event. Then could an event like that break even? No. I see that as a $50m ten year project. Which is what make me think some people are insane whan they think they are going to "bring it back"

 

[Gravel Spray]

>Tony:
>
>I agree with you, but the US EVO can be modified/upgraded to
>the homologated version probably for less $$ and pain than
>bringing in a a car from overseas.

Not really, take the cost of a US car, $30k, and add atleast $5k min, more like about $7k for new parts to complete the ACD conversion. Then the engine is different, pistons, turbo, and resurce system. and your easily into a $45k base car with no prep. Just buy a RS/RA for about $30k plus $1k shipping stateside. way cheaper. But the ProtoN type rules would fix this issue, we could build a US spec E8, no ACD.


pete
>
>As for a US Grp N class we sort of have one, PGT. I belive
>we could make some changes to that class to make the cars
>more competetive but and to fit more US sold cars, but looks
>like most people are happy with current PGT rules (maybe not
>the restrictor).
>
>-george

 

[Gravel Spray]

>
>I considered running Group N next year, but the problem is
>that very few cars are eligible for the class. Subaru WRX
>is the only US sold car currently homologated. The Evo
>VIII, US version is not homologated, therefore, to run an
>Evo in Group N, we would have to buy one outside he US.
>
>If the rules would allowed all cars otherwise legal for the
>class, but with US specs to enter Group N (or whatever you
>want to call it), that class would be awesome to enter.
>
>Tony Chavez

Here is a perfect example. Tony wants an affordable Turbo 4WD class with losts of battles, competition.

PGT is lame and nearly dead anyway due to 32mm, open WAY to expensive, GN has problems Tony outlines above. So a proto N class captures all these classes and solves many issues within them, and levels performance . Hell, Tony might even be able to get that Galant competitive.


Pete

 

[Gravel Spray]

George,

I have talked to a few people inside the SCCA about letting cars downsize brakes in order to compete in PGT(EVO8, AudiTT.

I found that nobody would even consider it, why?

Why force these guys into Open, or a fake GN car when its not reasonable in terms of cost to convert a US car to GN?


I get the impression you think it would be OK for this downsizing of brakes. What do you think?


Let me tell you, we have had a lot of calls in the last 18months about running E8,STI, Audi TT in PGT. These potencial entries into rally are like no way open, no way GN, both way to expensive. Why can't we have a cheap way to rally these cars, just down size brakes and you have a PGT car. The only thing I can say to them is the SCCA would like to see that car in GN.

Pete