Getting stuck on stage start?
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Not enough experienced workers...
I don't think this happened at the start of SS4 or SS7.
However..
Especially when things go wrong, it's nearly impossible to monitor the actions of 60 or so cars over a 500 ft area when there's possibly two people who have ever seen a rule book and 5 novice volunteers at a control, at night, in a downpour and a 40 mph wind.
The inexperienced worker doesn't know what's legal and what's not, but the competitors should.
Did some competitors get away with some stuff due to the conditions? yes, they did.
I don't think this happened at the start of SS4 or SS7.
However..
Especially when things go wrong, it's nearly impossible to monitor the actions of 60 or so cars over a 500 ft area when there's possibly two people who have ever seen a rule book and 5 novice volunteers at a control, at night, in a downpour and a 40 mph wind.
The inexperienced worker doesn't know what's legal and what's not, but the competitors should.
Did some competitors get away with some stuff due to the conditions? yes, they did.
RE: Not enough experfienced workers...
>Did some competitors get away with some stuff due to the
>conditions? yes, they did.
I was referring to an incident where they didn't "get away" with anything. Until they inquired it and then got 7 minutes removed from their score later.
So the "getting away" with stuff didn't happen at a busy stage start in poor conditions with ameteur workers, but rather by officials after reading an inquiry on a notice board.
>Did some competitors get away with some stuff due to the
>conditions? yes, they did.
I was referring to an incident where they didn't "get away" with anything. Until they inquired it and then got 7 minutes removed from their score later.
So the "getting away" with stuff didn't happen at a busy stage start in poor conditions with ameteur workers, but rather by officials after reading an inquiry on a notice board.
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RE: Not enough experfienced workers...
>So the "getting away" with stuff didn't happen at a busy
>stage start in poor conditions with ameteur workers, but
>rather by officials after reading an inquiry on a notice
>board.
I'd like to hear more about that one, unless the actual start time on the card was changed by the start marshall (which would have been very wrong), how did they know how much time to drop? The honor system?
edit: splelling
>So the "getting away" with stuff didn't happen at a busy
>stage start in poor conditions with ameteur workers, but
>rather by officials after reading an inquiry on a notice
>board.
I'd like to hear more about that one, unless the actual start time on the card was changed by the start marshall (which would have been very wrong), how did they know how much time to drop? The honor system?
edit: splelling
RE: Not enough experfienced workers...
Well.... from what i understand the driver pulled into the tore up start line(most likely sitting in some deep ruts) and gunned it off the line. in the process digging him self straight down, and getting stuck. if you ask me.. the smart thing to do would be to take it easy off the line until you can get out of the hole and on to solid ground before you put the pedal to the floor.
I did see the time card, something was crossed out/changed for the start time, but did pay that close attention.
Well.... from what i understand the driver pulled into the tore up start line(most likely sitting in some deep ruts) and gunned it off the line. in the process digging him self straight down, and getting stuck. if you ask me.. the smart thing to do would be to take it easy off the line until you can get out of the hole and on to solid ground before you put the pedal to the floor.
I did see the time card, something was crossed out/changed for the start time, but did pay that close attention.
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stuck
>Well.... from what i understand the driver pulled into the
>tore up start line(most likely sitting in some deep ruts)
>and gunned it off the line. in the process digging him self
>straight down, and getting stuck.
...And that's not a reason for giving a new start time or removing minutes.
Both Lurch and i have done this in the past, and both times had to eat the time, possibly costing Lurch the G2 national championship last year, and in my case, an overall win at a club rally in the early 90's.
>Well.... from what i understand the driver pulled into the
>tore up start line(most likely sitting in some deep ruts)
>and gunned it off the line. in the process digging him self
>straight down, and getting stuck.
...And that's not a reason for giving a new start time or removing minutes.
Both Lurch and i have done this in the past, and both times had to eat the time, possibly costing Lurch the G2 national championship last year, and in my case, an overall win at a club rally in the early 90's.
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1,838 Posts
RE: stuck
I was wondering how that would work out,
I was 1 car behind the car tuggin them out, so I started like 10 feet back from the line, and rolled through it..
There was some DEEP holes there.
I was wondering how that would work out,
I was 1 car behind the car tuggin them out, so I started like 10 feet back from the line, and rolled through it..
There was some DEEP holes there.
RE: stuck
>Both Lurch and i have done this in the past, and both times
>had to eat the time, possibly costing Lurch the G2 national
>championship last year, and in my case, an overall win at a
>club rally in the early 90's.
The past is past. I ain't looking to drudge up what coulda'. I DO want subjectivity replaced with consistency in this sport, though.
>Both Lurch and i have done this in the past, and both times
>had to eat the time, possibly costing Lurch the G2 national
>championship last year, and in my case, an overall win at a
>club rally in the early 90's.
The past is past. I ain't looking to drudge up what coulda'. I DO want subjectivity replaced with consistency in this sport, though.
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2,757 Posts
RE: stuck
If this was known by the time the event's provisional scores were posted, and there were witnesses to the prceedings, then why was a protest not filed? That is the provision in the rules to correct this sort of thing.
Mark B.
If this was known by the time the event's provisional scores were posted, and there were witnesses to the prceedings, then why was a protest not filed? That is the provision in the rules to correct this sort of thing.
Mark B.
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RE: stuck
Just for comparison sake, from the FIA general prescriptions for rally:
XIX. SPECIAL STAGES
...
19.4 Special stages commence from a standing start, with the car placed on the starting line. Any car not able to start from this point in the 20 seconds following a signal to do so is excluded and the car is immediately removed to a safe place.
It doesn't matter what time is in the time card if you're excluded!
Just for comparison sake, from the FIA general prescriptions for rally:
XIX. SPECIAL STAGES
...
19.4 Special stages commence from a standing start, with the car placed on the starting line. Any car not able to start from this point in the 20 seconds following a signal to do so is excluded and the car is immediately removed to a safe place.
It doesn't matter what time is in the time card if you're excluded!
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768 Posts
RE: stuck
Yup, it's tough "you know what" when this happens.
... er I mean Force Majeur ....
Fortunately the only time that it happened to me
(way back in '97) there were enough spectators and
workers at the start to push us ... we only lost about
30 seconds.
Yup, it's tough "you know what" when this happens.
... er I mean Force Majeur ....
Fortunately the only time that it happened to me
(way back in '97) there were enough spectators and
workers at the start to push us ... we only lost about
30 seconds.
RE: Not enough experfienced workers...
>Well.... from what i understand the driver pulled into the
>tore up start line(most likely sitting in some deep ruts)
>and gunned it off the line. in the process digging him self
>straight down, and getting stuck. if you ask me.. the smart
>thing to do would be to take it easy off the line until you
>can get out of the hole and on to solid ground before you
>put the pedal to the floor.
If the hole is deep enough, you might be sitting on the body already and not even need to "gun" it...you might be close to hanging already. Lesson learned. Turn lights on and inspect every start line. Don't just drive up to it cuz the starter motions or tells you to. That doesn't (or isn't supposed to) stand up in court.
>Well.... from what i understand the driver pulled into the
>tore up start line(most likely sitting in some deep ruts)
>and gunned it off the line. in the process digging him self
>straight down, and getting stuck. if you ask me.. the smart
>thing to do would be to take it easy off the line until you
>can get out of the hole and on to solid ground before you
>put the pedal to the floor.
If the hole is deep enough, you might be sitting on the body already and not even need to "gun" it...you might be close to hanging already. Lesson learned. Turn lights on and inspect every start line. Don't just drive up to it cuz the starter motions or tells you to. That doesn't (or isn't supposed to) stand up in court.
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168 Posts
It was a production car ahead of me. The start crew told the car to pull up and the driver did not want to, but did what the start control told them. They bottomed out imediantly. The driver relized they were stuck before the count down was over. No pushing or pulling by the start control could get them out. I ended up pulling them backwards after 7 minutes. I orignially thought they had a break down at the start line. Finally the co driver requested a tow backwards. Did I break some strange rule by helping in a control zone?
RE: Not enough experfienced workers...
I took down the Notice Board and saved the paper work. This is from the Inquiry Form
Car #534
Submitted By: Eric Heitkamp
Date & Time 10/22 10 pm
Our Problem is:
At the start of Bob Lake,(SS2) I was directed to bring my car to the start line where there was a deep hole created by the AWD guys. At the start the car did not move at all due to the hole we were directed into by the workers. After a few minutes of debate, the next rally car pulled us rearward and I asked to be started on the next minute interval. This was a 7 min delay. The workers posted the new appealed start time on the time card, and I started the stage on the minute like any other start. While approaching the start line, I noticed the large hole and stopped prior to it, but the workers waved me forward. I followed their directions and got stuck. From my understanding, all vehicles behind me were allowed to start behind the hole based on what happened to me.
Thank. Eric
We would like you to:
Use the appealed start time and subtract 7min 0sec from my SS2 time.
Organizers Response:
Remove 7 minutes
Date & Time 10/23/04 9:50
Hope this clears up what happened.
Kevin DeLoughary
I took down the Notice Board and saved the paper work. This is from the Inquiry Form
Car #534
Submitted By: Eric Heitkamp
Date & Time 10/22 10 pm
Our Problem is:
At the start of Bob Lake,(SS2) I was directed to bring my car to the start line where there was a deep hole created by the AWD guys. At the start the car did not move at all due to the hole we were directed into by the workers. After a few minutes of debate, the next rally car pulled us rearward and I asked to be started on the next minute interval. This was a 7 min delay. The workers posted the new appealed start time on the time card, and I started the stage on the minute like any other start. While approaching the start line, I noticed the large hole and stopped prior to it, but the workers waved me forward. I followed their directions and got stuck. From my understanding, all vehicles behind me were allowed to start behind the hole based on what happened to me.
Thank. Eric
We would like you to:
Use the appealed start time and subtract 7min 0sec from my SS2 time.
Organizers Response:
Remove 7 minutes
Date & Time 10/23/04 9:50
Hope this clears up what happened.
Kevin DeLoughary
You did what you had to do. I got a reverse tug by Henry last year when I got stuck and couldn't move. According to the rules, we were both "backing up in a control zone" and other bad things. It was better than delaying the rally further...something has to give. Cars couldn't get around us. Thank you for not delaying things further and acting on common sense.
Let it be known that you can start anywhere behind that start line you want to. Of course, you don't WANT to be too far back, but if you can pick a solid spot back a few feet and off to one side of the road that will get you through the quagmire left by many cars in a poorly selected start location, then you should start there. You cannot begin forward motion until the clock reaches zero, however, no matter how far back you start.
While we're on this subject. Let's think about that start location for next year. Sometimes the whole road is soft and there is no good solution. Maybe look for a slight descent so gravity helps a bit.
I never understood the uphill starts on ice at Sno*Drift either. You slip the clutch and apply power as gently as possible and the car just moves sideways...or backwards. Then you either have to back up to where there is snow to get a run or just hold up the rally needlessly. Just throwing that one out there since its coming up next.
Let it be known that you can start anywhere behind that start line you want to. Of course, you don't WANT to be too far back, but if you can pick a solid spot back a few feet and off to one side of the road that will get you through the quagmire left by many cars in a poorly selected start location, then you should start there. You cannot begin forward motion until the clock reaches zero, however, no matter how far back you start.
While we're on this subject. Let's think about that start location for next year. Sometimes the whole road is soft and there is no good solution. Maybe look for a slight descent so gravity helps a bit.
I never understood the uphill starts on ice at Sno*Drift either. You slip the clutch and apply power as gently as possible and the car just moves sideways...or backwards. Then you either have to back up to where there is snow to get a run or just hold up the rally needlessly. Just throwing that one out there since its coming up next.
RE: Not enough experfienced workers...
>Hope this clears up what happened.
Thanks Kevin. It does clear things up.
But that ain't the way its s'posed to work.
edit...My hat's off to Eric for getting one to stick. Just not happy with the lack of consistency.
>Hope this clears up what happened.
Thanks Kevin. It does clear things up.
But that ain't the way its s'posed to work.
edit...My hat's off to Eric for getting one to stick. Just not happy with the lack of consistency.
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1,368 Posts
stuck
>At the start of Bob Lake,(SS2) I was directed to bring my
>car to the start line where there was a deep hole created by
>the AWD guys.
The previous 6 cars in the start order were 2wd.
>At the start of Bob Lake,(SS2) I was directed to bring my
>car to the start line where there was a deep hole created by
>the AWD guys.
The previous 6 cars in the start order were 2wd.
We were right behind the incident as well, behind Johnston's Civic at that point I believe. I had just assumed they would eat the time, and didn't see the inquiry. The part about being directed into the hole by the start control is probably what made the inquiry successfull. The car not being able to start had more to do with how low it was than getting traction. We did start behind the rut but I think if we had started in the rut we still would have been able to start.
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