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well is time too said my part, I'm currently building and Nissan Sentra SE-R 1992 , I'm planing to be compiting next year calender , I think like many of you said building the car that you are going to race is a nice way to now everything that there is too now Know about the car you are racing.
It also depens on what are you paning in racing a FWD NA ( no force induction) is going to be cheaper to build because the cost of the car and also cheaper to mantain ( service ).
I figure that ones I'm donne with this car I will be around the 7 to 8 K .
So far :
Car $2000
Cage $1400
more to come .
Gus
 

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Update on the cost
car 2k
cage 1.4K
and the new addition :
2 setas
2 Vehicle Specific Seat Bracket
1 Sparco Seat Track Set - FIA homologated driver side
2 Life Hammer
2 Amerex 2.5 Lb. Dry Chemical Fire Extinguisher
1 Safe Drives Rally First Aid Kit
3 Emergency Warning Triangle
12 ft BSCI FIA Homologated Roll Cage Padding
1 Terraphone Pro Intercom System Open Face
2 G-Force Pro Series GF-C7000/7100 Camlock 5 Point Harness FIA & SFI
$ 1.357.65
total so far: $4757.65
 

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I was seriously considering buying a already built 2wd already built Jetta but then I got to talking to my buddy who is a serious Subaru guy and mechanic/fabricator (he's got horizontal and vertical mills in his shop, an out of car engine dyno and knows how to use them). I've been trading him my labor helping him organize his shop in exchange for his labor on my car (for some reason its not as hard work to organize some elses stuff).

Today he offered one of his Legacy sedans to the project, his skills and whatever parts he's got on hand (lets just say he's got 4 engines a couple of trannys, suspension and heaven knows what else in there, see above note about organizing shop). I've been trying to talk him out of his 323 GTX for a year now but he's promised it to another friend. I want a fun car for Rally X and then down the line stage rallys. He's excited about the project too. So, here we go!
 

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left 6 through dip into weeds
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Don't forget another valuable source for prebuilt cars...any of the road racing series'. They're already caged and logbooked, and they've got at least one correct seat and some sort of fire extinguishing system in them.
Add a second seat, a skid plate, some electrics and rally suspension, and you've got what you want! You have an affordable, quickly built rally car, and you're familiar with the stuff you need familiarity with in the event that they give you problems (ie suspension, lights, odo)
You can buy me a beer at your first event!
 

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L5 Lg > 4 into Broken
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gphcomp said:
Don't forget another valuable source for prebuilt cars...any of the road racing series'. They're already caged and logbooked, and they've got at least one correct seat and some sort of fire extinguishing system in them.
Add a second seat, a skid plate, some electrics and rally suspension, and you've got what you want! You have an affordable, quickly built rally car, and you're familiar with the stuff you need familiarity with in the event that they give you problems (ie suspension, lights, odo)
You can buy me a beer at your first event!
In my experience looking for a car, the cages in road race cars were woefully under-spec for rally. Tubes too small or thin, bars missing, angles not adheared to, too many bends. I would caution that you should know the rules for cages inside and out before buying a non-rally caged car. Our car was a rally car and we still spent $$$ bringing the cage up to current "standards" (i.e. what I as co-driver felt comfortable riding in)

Jeremy
 

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150 Yump - 70mph-0mph in 5ft
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I support what a lot of you have written. You'll get some good experience from starting with a 2wd underpowered car. We jumped right in and bought a AWD Ecplipse thinking we would dominate, and all we did was plant it in the side of a hill. Get some experience with a 2wd and work into something else. By the time your ready for something more you'll know exactly why and what..

I'd suggest buying some one elses rally car also. They can tell you the in's and out's of that particular car better than anyone, you'll be one step ahead that way.

If you're interested though, this little red beauty you see flying as my avatar will be up for sell around the end of the year. It's been a Podium car for a while in PGT....
 

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TG Dog/dogbox /LSD for any car
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585 Posts
igot a Q!

On the turbo the water cooling dose a lot, or could be plugged. I mean is a 1/4'' pipe, and makes to change the turbo bit difficult. I just took the turbo out,and i'm wondering what to do whit.
 

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100 R4 50Y!->R2+ (D/C)
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181 Posts
On saabs at least, the water jackets can simply be left open or plugged.

The lines on the car of course need to be dealt with so you don't loose coolant. The cooling jacket can help extend engine oil life and also helps prevent the heatsoak that occurs when the engine is shut off from coking the oil.

If you are concerned about the way heat from the turbo is affecting your oil, you can get the oil tested after you drain it.
 

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TG Dog/dogbox /LSD for any car
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585 Posts
On saabs at least, the water jackets can simply be left open or plugged.

The lines on the car of course need to be dealt with so you don't loose coolant. The cooling jacket can help extend engine oil life and also helps prevent the heatsoak that occurs when the engine is shut off from coking the oil.

If you are concerned about the way heat from the turbo is affecting your oil, you can get the oil tested after you drain it.
Thanks for the reply! Since than i puted back as it was. But I dont like it, so i will test it without that.
 

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Lessons learned from past builders...

Lessons from other who have built their cars:
Can you guys add in some pointers on things you guys wish you did different.
1. From the first rollcage I did I wish I had done the ingress with the helmet instead a quick check.
2. I have seen from the message that seam welding is a good idea.
3. Reinforcing the suspension was also recommendd in the message board.
4. add in your comments
 

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Lessons from other who have built their cars:
Can you guys add in some pointers on things you guys wish you did different.
1. From the first rollcage I did I wish I had done the ingress with the helmet instead a quick check.
2. I have seen from the message that seam welding is a good idea.
3. Reinforcing the suspension was also recommendd in the message board.
4. add in your comments
- Get your seats early in the process, before building the cage, and mock it up all together BEFORE building the cage. Especially for tall people, it can make a world of difference to locate the main hoop and bracing back an extra few inches.

Regards,
Mark B.
 

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100 R4 50Y!->R2+ (D/C)
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Seam welding is not the best idea, in my opinion. If your a top notch welder and aren't going to get everything too hot, it can be productive, but often it is poorly done and better left alone. A bad weld can offer no improvement and weaken welds and body work that are already in place from the factory.

Mark, I am very tall and about to begin a cage install, I noticed nothing in the rule book that specified how far back I can put my main hoop. I figured I would put it at the B-pillar or just slightly behind it and deal with it. Can I put it as far back as I need or what is the story on this?
 

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For begginners;
All i can say is you needs lots and lots of time to sort the car even if you buy a prebuilt car unless you have an infinite budget and you get everything done by someone else. Get ready for that!!!
It took us a good 6+ hours just to sort the electrical stuff under the hood. And this was on a car that had its electrical supposedly sorted. The last 2-3 weeks ive been trying to get the car ready for BRS and little things have been taking lots of time. I ve been averaging 6-7 hours a day. I ve been told that it will continue as well and have been "welcomed" to the sport by the likes of Mr Bowers and others as they have told me thats the way it will continue...

Oscar
 

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I figured I should post my questions here since I am just getting started as well. I Had fun and success with rallyxs', would like to stage now.

My questions are:

Is 2wd production class much less competitive than 4wd production.

Are 2wd much harder to maintain than 4wd (4wd Subaru brand non turbo) cars for rally?


I have a nice non turbo 2002 Subaru wagon that I can build (fab myself). I just want more info on 2wd vs. 4wd competition and realibility since I have an opportunity to build a 4wd car. But I would like to be somewhat competitive and so maybe I should stick with 2wd?
 

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Hey 'odi',

'Competitive' needs some defining by you, yourself, to have a meaningful answer. In class? Overall? In which events? National or regional? One thing seen in many events is that a well driven 2WD can beat a lot of mediocrely driven AWD cars, even turbo'd ones. These 2WD cars are generally well prepared, although not necessarily with the most power. They are just well set up and driven quite well. And there is at least one good N/A AWD car driver out ther who does well aganst most comers. Soooo, the lesson here is to built something well, put in good suspension, make it reliable, and then go out and concentrate on learning and driving well; does not matter which car drive config it is. Pure stock production class cars will tend to be the slowest cars out there; I would prefer M2/G2 to Stock/P class.

Never had a Subaru so can't directly comment on them. But, a 2WD car will have less drivetrain parts to break and wear, plain and simple. In general, conventinoa lwisdon says a 2WD car would be easier to maintain, not harder. But, bigger factors in maintenance for any car would be:
- age of car
- former maintenance, especially if it has been used as a rally car
- your own diligence and efforts at maintenance
The simple effort of learning the car, and then going through it 3-4 weeks ahead of the next event to find stuff that may be loose or worn will save a huge amount or rally reliability incidents. Paying attention to odd guage readings, new squeaks and rattles, etc., and being willing to find them and fix any developing problems is a big help to head off problems.

In any case, welcome! I hope you have as much fun and as many rewarding experiences in rallying as the rest of us!
Mark B.
 

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For begginners;
All i can say is you needs lots and lots of time to sort the car even if you buy a prebuilt car unless you have an infinite budget and you get everything done by someone else. Get ready for that!!!
It took us a good 6+ hours just to sort the electrical stuff under the hood. And this was on a car that had its electrical supposedly sorted. The last 2-3 weeks ive been trying to get the car ready for BRS and little things have been taking lots of time. I ve been averaging 6-7 hours a day. I ve been told that it will continue as well and have been "welcomed" to the sport by the likes of Mr Bowers and others as they have told me thats the way it will continue...

Oscar
But you should have seen the happy grin on Oscar's face after he finished Black River Stages, even with a bent rear axle! Yes! It was all worth it, right Oscar??!!
 

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Thanks for the Welcoming. My goals are to be competitive in my class (some production class) in my region (CRS series). I have an opportunity to buy this http://www.specialstage.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=592&cat=13 . Is that a good car for 2wd production?

It would be cheaper than building my 4wd Subaru for sure, and I would be out there maybe even in 2008.
 

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But you should have seen the happy grin on Oscar's face after he finished Black River Stages, even with a bent rear axle! Yes! It was all worth it, right Oscar??!!
Oh yeah! Very well worth it. Loved every second of it. I can't wait for Sandblast to happen. In fact i was filling out the entry form as we speak. This time around i thought i was gonna have less to worry about but i will be putting in a final drive and the diff i had bought over 6 months ago. Thanks again for everything Mark.

Oscar
 

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Correct me if I am wrong, but from your comments I am assuming you are not a professional mechanic (or have that level of skills). If my assumption is correct:

1. Buy a ready built car.

2. Buy a car that someone else built.

3. Do not build your own car.

4. And this one is really important......

DON'T TRUST ANYONE ABOUT ANYTHING! Rally people will talk endlessly about "the helpful rally community", and there is truth to that. However, rally is like any other group of people... there are people that are not honest and will take advantage of you.

There are also honest, well intentioned people that think they know everything, but they don't know everything.

Bottom line: go to rallies, meet people, talk with them, check out references, etc, etc.

Also: everyone will have an opinion of what you should or should not do. Remember.... it is your time and money, not their's.
And get a mechanical inspection on the Rally car. Almost everyone is honest, but not everyone is an excellent mechanic..... and get a good mechanic.

A used rally car won't be perfect, but at least you know what you might be in for.

Now..... to get working brakes for my rally car.......

Oh yea, someone told me once not to ever get a rally car that has never been rallied. Instead buy a car that has proven that it could take the punishment.
 
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