[ICWestRally2006]

My friend and I are planning on building a car to use in rallycross and clubrally events in the future. we have been looking around for a suitable 2WD car to use, and so far we have narrowed our search down to a late 80's-early 90's GTI, a 1990-2000 Toyota Celica, or a mid-90's Civic or Integra. We have also considered a Subaru Impreza or Celica All-Trac, but most of the articles on the subject say to start out in a 2WD car. we would like to know which of these cars is the best starting platform (i.e. easiest to modify and tune), and what the most cost-effective mods for rallying would be. We are on a fairly tight budget, and may not actually start building until next year. any response would be appreciated.

 

[jimmy]

Once more:

DO NOT BUILD IT.

BUY AN ALREADY BUILT CAR !!!

press on,

 

[JC_595]

There are a couple of PERFECT starter Golfs on Ben's rally classified. 1 in Ohio & 1 in NH. Both are near completion & can be had VERY affordably. Both will make AWESOME G2 beginner cars & have potential to be G2 competitive with time/work/upgrades/practice.

There are lots of folks running Hondas now. I am sure there is support in the rally community for building those too, if that's what you so choose.

Jimmy is right- Buy yer first one. It WILL save you money. You can always sell it to another beginner after you decide/learn what you want/dont want for future rallying.

JC
#595
www.gnimotorsports.com

 

[jay streets]

jimmy is always right!

 

[Flyboy]

>Once more:
>
>DO NOT BUILD IT.
>
>BUY AN ALREADY BUILT CAR !!!
>
>press on,

And don't use the argument that you can't afford a built car, so you are going to build one slowly as funds become available. Take that time and get a second job (or work overtime), save the money, and buy the built car.

BTW, either go with the Golf, or a Randy Zimmer style naturally aspirated Suby. Both are strong, cheap, easy to drive, and well developed for rally. Plus a dozen show up at every rally, so emergancy parts are plentiful.


Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845

 

[mack73]

A very nice golf popped up on the vortex today, its in Road Island though. A bit spendier than the other two mention, but well built

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1981492

 

[LowMan]

If you choose to buy or build, you will still need a place to build or maintain and the tools to do it with. A place to work is very important in either instance. Storage or whatever. Even if you buy a prebuilt car, what happens when the engine goes or transmission fails? How much do you want to pay someone for something you could have done? I am also a new guy on a small budget who has followed as much rally as I could for a few years now(working/spectating/TVwatching/this forum crap) and you really need a place to work. If you don't have that... then work on it. My rally plan is near the end of it's three year conception. Keep your options open. good luck.

 

[randyzimmer]

Since there are two of you, here's a fun test.
Just stay in RallyX for a year.
Buy a VW AND a Subaru, just spend a couple hundred for each, and run them both for a season.
Meanwhile, work at rally events and look at the cars and how they hold up. You can also get tips on prep.
Make a decision on which you want to persue as the rally car brand (or neither), then you may already have some spare parts from the old car!
You have a year of yucks and only out a bit of cash that was a good investment.
Let us all know how it works out so others may gain from your study.
rz

 

[rightseat]

>Since there are two of you, here's a fun test.
>Just stay in RallyX for a year.
>Buy a VW AND a Subaru, just spend a couple hundred for each,
>and run them both for a season.
>Meanwhile, work at rally events and look at the cars and how
>they hold up. You can also get tips on prep.
>Make a decision on which you want to persue as the rally car
>brand (or neither), then you may already have some spare parts
>from the old car!
>You have a year of yucks and only out a bit of cash that was a
>good investment.
>Let us all know how it works out so others may gain from your
>study.
>rz


And remember--getting to know the teams who are racing is the VERY BEST way to find great deals on well-built cars for sale. You guys spend a year on the circuit getting to know the rally game and the rally teams, and you'll find exactly the car that's right for your budget. I'd vote for a normally aspirated AWD Subaru (but hey what do I know, I just own 2 of em)

cheers

Dave G
www.lastditchracing.net

"...Embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."

 

[starion887]

Just one problem with this philosophy: eventually we wlll have no more cars if nobody builds them. It's like small aircraft: theyr'e crashin' 'em faster than their buildin' 'em......

The point is that if you are not mechnical and do not have fab skills, you will spend a lot more $$ to build up from scratch becouse you wil end up jobbing thing out. On the other hand, if you DO have fab skills, and mechnical experience, then you CAN built a car more cheaply than buy. And, in this case, you don't buy someone else's problem child; I have seen plenty of those.

So take the time talk to folks at events as has been recommended and honetly evaluate your skills: do you weld? can you build a motor? do you have free time in the evenings and on the weekends? do you have garage space that can be tied up for a while? do you just love wrenching on a car? If the answer to any of these is a resounding 'NO', then the buy route may be your best choice.

As to car choice, my prefs:
2WD
Nissan SE-R - good in it's basic form
Neon
Golf (but be ready to do some mods to fix some basic rally issues)
Honda - lots of parts but needs a good body re-work
4WD
Subie N/A (I hate to admit it but lots of stuff)

(OBTW we really like our Toyota Alltrac but have not run it enough to determine reliability. Trannies are reputed to be weakish, and we broke a 2nd gear synchro last time out; hope it's not a sign of things to come....)

Mark B.

 

[Flyboy]

>Just one problem with this philosophy: eventually we wlll
>have no more cars if nobody builds them. It's like small
>aircraft: theyr'e crashin' 'em faster than their buildin'
>'em......
>
>

Good point. That's why I tell people to build their SECOND car, and not their first. That way they'll know what they like and don't like, need and don't need, etc....

BTW, a note on airplanes. Because they keep crashin' em, and new ones are like $250k a pop (I think David Richards owns part of Cessna), used airplanes are a great investment. You can buy a reasonably equipped, mid time plane for $25k, fly it 50 hours a year for five years, and sell it for more than you paid for it. Try that with a rally car!


Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845

 

[granthughes]

I went the buy my first car route and am building my second as we speak. I definitely recommend buying your first car. Much less headache and you'll be out there sooner. Plus it helps you figure out exactly what you want out of a car and makes it much easier when it comes time to build your next. Or I guess it can make it harder if you get like me and have three good platforms available to start from.

 

[Moz]

I agree with Jimmy, buy the first car built. I bought a car that was built and could have sold the parts for more than what I paid for the car. The car had issues and had never finished a rally it was entered before I bought it. We worked on the car and it is reliable now (besides some of the common rally tear ups that happen, like hitting the side of a mountain). Rallys are hard on cars. The Alfa Romeo Milano I bought is not the ideal car to rally, but it still keeps me racing. Many ask me why a Alfa? I can only resond "it was a deal". I believe that the DNFs the car had before I bought it was the learning curve of building a new car. Do you want to go through the same learning curve while paying for entry fees? We have learned alot from having a car to race, instead of spending time building. Choose a car that you can get parts at the local auto shop to fix when that rock knocks out that part that you thought a rock could reach. It is alot funner running than building, and it will save you money overall. Talk to the local inspectors, they will know where there is a car that some one wants to sell. When I had my car inspected for the first time, I learned I could have bought his old rally car for the same price locally, instead of driving thousands of miles to pick up the car I bought. There are those unpublished cars for sale in a barn or under a tarp in the back yard.

 

[Morten]

I went the buy your first car route.

It may be quicker in theory...

I spent 8 months looking for the car and another 4 months waiting for the motor to be rebuilt.

Now I'm trying to have a motor oil leak fixed that was "overlooked", and am back waiting again.

It's been over a year and I'm missing events left right and center.

When all is said and done, I will probably agree with the buy your first car concept... unless you have an open cheque book.

 

[mothra]

I am a fan of building. Based on my expereince with 1 car my first that I built (with lots of help from others in the area). It took much longer, cost a little more, but it was a priceless expereince I know more about the functioning of a rally car than I would if I bought a complete car. I also know how to fix anything on the car when it breaks and know where the weak points and problem spots in the car are. I would do some things differently if I were to build it again but it is safe reliable and fun.



Matt Smith
www.fireantracing.com
Viva NASA Rallysport

 

[Matt F]

The new racer response...

Competeing in P1 in an old Justy, maybe I'm not one to talk, but I'm all for building your first... If you have the welding skills. I don't think you can really get an accurate picture here, because most people will be biased towards what they did.

As to the drivetrain choice, sometimes I wish we had started with a group2 capable car, but the Justy is really in a class of it's own, short, underpowered 4WD...

Pros for building (you building, not paying a shop)

1.It may not be significantly cheaper, but the cost will be spread out over a few pay cheques!

2.You can race an unfinished car quick, ie suspension not "finished" electrics not totally redone etc. put a cage in and go race.

3.You will know all the weak points in the car, and can be easy on it untill they are improved.

4.When it breaks, you'll know how to fix it, or at least be only blaming yourself (stupid rad at Defi!)

5.you'll learn a ton real quick.

6. you will probably have driven the car before changes begin, you can judge whether you like the car first.. and you can see what the changes do to transform it.

Tips...

Get to know your scrutineer before you take in the finished product, have them look it over during the build process. Things are easier to chage when they are only tack welded. and adding bars after the cage is painted is more work. (didn't have to, showed up with too many to begin with...)

make sure the whole shell is free of rust (silly Rusty Justy)

Strip the WHOLE interior the first time, and do paint it soon after.

Race it cautiously at first, to see what is wrong, and where

Things I wish I had done...

Given myself more time... more then a month, really tired at first race

Car with less rust... what would be insigificant on a street car, is a nightmare on a rally car.

Seam welded the strut towers and front sub frame during inital build, not after bending things... silly practice jumps!

Just build it

 

[AWDRIFT]

Everything that matt f said. Building a rally car may be one of the most difficult things you've ever done, it certainly was for me. If I bought my first car I probably could have put off learning about some really important stuff that you NEED TO KNOW. If your sure what you want then build it. BTW matt see u @ black bear? I'm booking rooms if you guys wanna stay over let me know.

dave

 

[Ray]

Getting Started Means Never Finishing

This is a ongoing subject and I must say a heated one as well.

Buying you first car is a very good idea. There are plenty of cars out there that are preppared to competition level. It's best if you buy your first and see first hand what you need and don't need.
And too top it off, most are affordable.
(P or G/2 cost factor... $3.000.00 - 7.000.00 USD)

Building your car is frustrating and fun if you like to fabricate and work on cars in general. You can build it with your personal touches so to say. One thing is for sure, your local scrapyard dealer and parts store will love you. You will secure their retirement plan.
(P or G/2 cost factor... $8.000.00 - 15.000.00 USD car not included)

It's basically up to you how much you want to put into the sport before you can get out and actually run the car. And as for what type of car...?
Something you can find parts for in your area. Brands like VW, Ford, Honda are a good choice. These cars are popular on the road and you can find parts at any junkyard or parts store.
But it's like I said, and others too, it's how much time you want to spend in the garage. Your wife might not like that either. :+

Whiplash Rallye Sport
(Rallying is not a crime)

 

[Griswold]

Going back to your first post you said you wanted to do rallycross and then rally in the future. If your going to rallycross for a while then I would not buy the prepared stage car now. Find that 2wd car that you like, a Golf would be my preference but Sentra's and Civic's can be good too, then build it up over time. Volunteer to work some rally events and meet the people as others have said. You can learn more than you can imagine by working an event. When you decide it's time to rally one of two things will have happened; you will have built up your car some and the transformation to a stage car will be easier; or you will realize that to get on the stages sooner you need to sell the rallycross car and buy a preped car.

This scenario is what I will I had done.

 

[randyzimmer]

build or buy

Since this is a pinned subject now, I'll need to throw in a comment.

As far as knowing how to fab cars, I built pro Tran-Am cars for factory teams from tubing, sheet and billet. When it came to Rally cars, I knew nothing about the special needs and conditions of rally events so I bought.

My choice was a brand of car I wanted but one that had a terrible result record other than it "always" (8 for 9) finished.

I learned so much from looking at how things were done on that car that it cut my learning budget to the cost of the car, not a bunch of DNFs and needless purchases.

As far as knowing the car by being the one who built it, that assumes the new owner simply plops in the seat and drives. I went all through my new purchase but before changing anything, I tried to notice what was different and why it may have been done that way before touching it.

The bought car went 17 events in 13 months and DNF'd only once. That was when I rolled and the oil ran out while upside down before we continued.

http://www.randyzimmer.com/video/rallyentrylog.pdf

I cannot think of anyone who started by building their own car who has done it better or more cost effectively.

rz