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Dramamine is for DramaQueens
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Discussion Starter #662
Production class? People still did that?
Keep in mind that the production classes in Canada allow for a bit more leeway in what can be done and have gotten away from the 'must have the right door cards for the year and model' type of rigidity.
Production 4WD has been extremely well subscribed in western Canada in recent years, and has shown some good competition.

What Reeves in a Fiesta shows is that the Driver makes the difference, but a properly engineered car doesn't hurt.
 

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Keep in mind that the production classes in Canada allow for a bit more leeway in what can be done and have gotten away from the 'must have the right door cards for the year and model' type of rigidity.
Production 4WD has been extremely well subscribed in western Canada in recent years, and has shown some good competition.

What Reeves in a Fiesta shows is that the Driver makes the difference, but a properly engineered car doesn't hurt.
Oh, I thought it showd:
In order for a driver with confirmed, known skills---from previous results in events with depth of entries in roughly similar hi spec machinery---

To do top Overall results....he does not need crutches such as 4WD and 3 diffs and $1800 diff controllers, and turbos--or restrictors...or even 2000cc

With just 1600cc of a GOOD reliable motor, he needs only a decent set of ratios, a good final drive, a good diff (and of course good suspension, brakes and steering---a given on any car).

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"Properly engineered" is empty fluff meaningless words, and as always obvious, so a platitude.---and helps nobody understand the specific differences, the specific items..Final drive, gear set, diff---that brings the focus narrower.

But who cares anyway really, Somehow every week we see people selling off the "dream" car AWD things

"2 races only" or "some assembly required, pile of parts, $23,000" they don't listen.
 

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Dramamine is for DramaQueens
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Discussion Starter #664
...the specific items..Final drive, gear set, diff---that brings the focus narrower.
pphht. I'm pretty sure it was a fiesta... which LOOKS like a narrower version of the focus but is actually quite different.

Considering we regularly saw Reeves in the exact same car as mid to back pack teams, the car isn't what set him apart.

NOBODY suggests that the majority of cars in the US or Canada are being pushed to their limits...
 

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People will always do that. It's the class that proves who the better driver is.

Never in my experience..
It has in America invariable been the refuge of scoundrals and admitted cheaters, often blatant, but always there.
Scoundrals like the 'person" who protested another for the"illegal" plastic trim around the gearshifter...when thet cheater had cheated like acheater in the production POS thing run previously (horrifyingly one of the worse things was from a wise crack I blurted out after tiring of the 30-40 non-stop whining about how slow the POS car was..I said something like "P class has always been filled with lying disgusting cheaters, quit bitching and just cheat---stick in a 4.44 front ring and pinion outta a 4wd box instead of that 3.73 or whatever the junk is"


And they did.... oooops..

No P class....there was previously several denizens of P class who without shame admitted "oh, we always do that, we all did"... has always been the refuge of scoundrels.
Mike Hurst once said after some National where EVERY P and PGT had multiple obvious cheats "I don't understand it, If they don't want to do the class why do they enter it if they're going to do all these things"

Group 2 is the class which shows who the better driver is...Always has been. Sorry
 

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pphht. I'm pretty sure it was a fiesta... which LOOKS like a narrower version of the focus but is actually quite different.

Considering we regularly saw Reeves in the exact same car as mid to back pack teams, the car isn't what set him apart.

NOBODY suggests that the majority of cars in the US or Canada are being pushed to their limits...
Whatever Morison, you want to pretend that the other cars were same full $17,000 Sadev box/diff/driveshafts/shifter spec, fine..
The point wasn't about any of the lesser 2wd cars, it was what a good driver needs to beat EVERY car except corporate sponsored cars of vastly greater power and spec.
 

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Dramamine is for DramaQueens
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Discussion Starter #667
Whatever Morison, you want to pretend that the other cars were same full $17,000 Sadev box/diff/driveshafts/shifter spec, fine..
Knowing two people well who were directly involved with that program I'm pretty sure the R2s were all of the same spec. (although definitely not all of the Fiestas under the TON banner were R2 spec.)
The point wasn't about any of the lesser 2wd cars, it was what a good driver needs to beat EVERY car except corporate sponsored cars of vastly greater power and spec.
That was your point... but the reality is that driver skill was - without a doubt - the major component in that. (but yes, couldn't have been done without a good car underneath him.)
 

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straight at T
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Group 2 is the class which shows who the better driver is...Always has been. Sorry
Group 2 was the class created for the over-age Production cars (when Production still had an age limit). It was intended to alow people (Clubbies) to continue to run their no-longer-legal Production cars while the top 2wd drivers ran legal Production cars.

Group 2 shows who can buy the best bits/cars (like ex-BRC Golfs with all the toys)

Adrian
 

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Group 2 was the class created for the over-age Production cars (when Production still had an age limit). It was intended to alow people (Clubbies) to continue to run their no-longer-legal Production cars while the top 2wd drivers ran legal Production cars.

Group 2 shows who can buy the best bits/cars (like ex-BRC Golfs with all the toys)

Adrian
Sorry Adrian, wrong... I was around and talked with the principal people like then National Steward....
There HAD been moves from some people in the E and NE to ban any whatever except "P" class and PGT and naturally allow "Open" the exact motivation being quote
"most of the cars are production cars anyway so blah blah"

It was vigorously pointed out to the utterer of those words that that may be an anomaly of just Eastern US events where a couple iof factors such as TONS of salt per mile and not a lotta foriegn cars sold led to that---

and it was not true anyway even for the Eastern event..( I'll be honest and say that way back then when this discussion occured I was surprised that therte were indeed 3-5 P cars in say STPR scattered in the 50-60 entries.)


In the rest of the entire country participation in P class was nearly always ONE fawker who wanted a cheezy trophy.

Where do you think I developed such a contempt for the entire class and the cheating and posing that is ---out here--invariably linked to it?

For watching the posing locally---and the machinations Nationally, know the participants are weasels and cheaters---then 20 years later seeing them openly admit they cheated constantly --unselfconsciously saying "we all did it, we had to"

The origins of Group2 is easy if you think back..
There was Open.....................whioch meant Buffum and Bruno Kreibich in works spec Quattros, Wooder in a customer spec 205 GpB car, Millen in his AWD RX-7, then a pile of guys in varying states of "like whatever-ness" Toyotas, Datsuns, Mazdogs, Saabs, Volvos, and then weird junk.

Kinda like the current economy...the 1% and the rest..

THEN there were suddenly 323s, and Eclipsed/Talons--so now on LOCAL level there was a replication of the "3 guys with turbo fast cars, and the rest (don't forget the 1 P car, better give the whiney fawk a plaque" type deal)

So suddenly there was a need for classes.
PGT came around

and Group 2.. No mention of "overage P cars" at all
zero.
Wrong


It was more "the rest not covered, throw 'em a bone.."


Maybe in Canada but old CASC Production rules were a joke as bad as CRS "Pea stock"

Not here.
 

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Actually most of the ranting came from people who don’t compete in the Canadian 2wd classes..
So. I was one of those people and got called out on it by Pat, yet my name is in the CARS rulebook for winning CARS National Gr2 championship with my butt in from mild to wild 2wd rides that few drivers experience the full spectrum. The people complaining certainly had more 2wd expertise and experienced the awesomeness of MaxAttack! than the always-been-AWD competitors and shops that were writing rules for 2wd competitors.

Since the change there has been more focus on the 2wd championship from the media, organizers and competitors.
No the entry numbers haven’t grown much, but it hasn’t gone down either. And we have more competitors in a single class rather than spread out over several smaller classes. And I think the competition is quite close..
Please quantify. No growth in entries. Always has been just a couple blurbs on the TV productions. Increased media is because the media has gotten better to follow what you want (Facebook, Instagram,...). Was almost recent history when there were all the crazy P1-P3 and Gr2 classes and there was some tight battles till last event and final stage back then. (Gord Olsen vs Jon Nichols).

At our last regional event in Ontario we had three US 2wd teams enter. And the western events quite regularly get US entries.
Definitely not the end of 2wd in Canada that some people predicted.
First you say the people complaining were not competing in Canada and now you mention US competitors attending. It was largely the US competitors (and Martin) who would have been impacted (SRT4, Mazda3, BMWs, Ramana?). Hoping Lurch enters TallPines before we are all too old.
 

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Now i'm not suggesting to change anything. Just want to point out its really hard to ever tell just how skilled a driver is when the cars are so Varied in ability.

I've had this incredibly silly notion for a while that it would be very entertaining if a rally had a stage that was just a straight 1/4 or 1/2 mile . and then the 2nd stage was either an oval, or a figure 8, go around 2 or 3 times.
then send them out to race on 100-150 miles of real stages.

that would really show you whose cars go like stink in a straight line, and which cars are setup well to corner at a high rate of speed.

you might see certain competitors get really good times on the 1/4 mile, only to fall much lower in the overall results, and you'de see some of the opposite as well. someone who got a horrible 1/4 mile time, but then stomps the rest of the rally.

Short of that its a LOT of speculation on real driving ability..

honestly not knowing definitively though is probably Better for rally. Jane smith can think she's faster than John doe , because she sets better times. John Doe can think he's faster than Jane smith his gearing is Horrible, and yet he's only a second off her pace.

Sort of a win-win there. :) Except for the Hordes (all dozens of us) who pour over the results ... :) lol
 
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