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Dramamine is for DramaQueens
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Four Class Structure - CARS Bulletin 2012-05 now online

Posted today to the CARS website:

BULLETIN No.: 2012 – 05
Subject: National Rally Rule changes effective January 1, 2013
Issue Date: September 3, 2012

As many in the sport are aware, CARS embarked on a project several years ago to look into our current vehicle class structure. A committee, headed by past CARS president, Jorge Dascollas, and comprised of competitors, builders, organizers and officials was formed to complete the work.

The main underlying concerns identified by the committee include low entry in many of the current classes, as well as the ever-increasing cost of competition, particularly in Open class. The committee looked into the reasons behind this and determined that the complexity and restrictions, most notably in the production classes, was a significant factor. The basic concept behind the new rules is to remove many of these restrictions and simplify the ability to build affordable cars for competition.

In late 2011, the committee presented the final report and recommendations to the CARS Board of Directors. Formal discussions on adopting the class changes took place at the January 2011 meetings in Kelowna, and subsequently by several conference calls. After a lengthy process, we are now at the stage of implementing the new class structure into Canadian National Rules.

Beginning in January 2013, national competitions will now be based on the four classes. They are Open 4WD, Open 2WD and Production 4WD and Production 2WD. Details of the specific rule changes are attached to this bulletin, but to summarize the changes;

Open 4WD
- 2500cc maximum engine displacement
- 34 mm turbo restrictor
- 2900 pounds minimum weight
- No other significant changes to the rules
- Note. The Board is considering a reduction of the turbocharger restrictor to 32mm beginning in 2014.

Open 2WD
- 2500cc maximum displacement for normally aspirated engines
- 2000cc maximum displacement for turbocharged engines
- 32 mm restrictor for turbocharged engines
- No other significant changes from Group 2 rules

Production 4WD
- 2500cc maximum displacement for normally aspirated engines and turbo charged engines
- 32 mm restrictor for turbocharged engines
- 3350lb minimum weight
- Variant restrictions removed. Updating and backdating of parts from models sold in North America allowed.
- Various other minor changes to simplify and reduce build costs

Production 2WD
- 2500cc maximum displacement
- Turbocharged engines not allowed.
- No minimum weight
- No updating or backdating of parts allowed.
- Various other minor changes to simplify and reduce build costs

The Board recognizes that a small number of cars currently competing will no longer fit within the rules, and a considerable amount of time was spent discussing options to minimize the impact to current competitors. The 2WD changes are significant for the future growth of the sport and there is no simple way to amalgamate large displacement engine, 2WD cars while keeping the playing field level. In the end, the difficult decision was made to move forward with the rule changes as outlined, and allow regions the option of keeping large displacement 2WD vehicles within their rules.

The CARS Board hopes these changes will help promote increased competition in the Canadian Rally Championship. First, the Board believes the changes to the production rules will significantly lower the cost of competing in this class, while also making cars more reliable. Second, the Board also sees 2WD as a growth area for the future. A number of vehicles are now on the market that can be both competitive and cost effective in this class, and our Marketing Director, Keith Morison, has also been working to secure sponsorship as well as contingency programs targeted at 2WD competitors.

As always, the CARS Board of Directors would like to hear from you. Comments and concerns over these changes can be addressed to any of the Region Directors, the Competitors or Organizers Representative, the Technical Director, or myself.

Sincerely,
Tom McGeer,
President, Canadian Association of Rallysport

Link to the full bulleting is available from the article on the front page at www.CARSRally.ca
 

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Looks good (initially)

I don't really know the Canadian rally landscape, but it does appear there is no place for larger motor vehicles to play. but knowing that i'm ignorant , i'm guesing that canadians don't rally with large motored vehicles?
 

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Looks good (initially)

I don't really know the Canadian rally landscape, but it does appear there is no place for larger motor vehicles to play. but knowing that i'm ignorant , i'm guesing that canadians don't rally with large motored vehicles?
I'm trying to recall in recent memory who this would effect.

Houston with his volvo (hasnt been out in forever)
The turbo porsche 944 (hasn't been out in forever)
May or may not affect zebe (his car is 2.0l or 2.4? I forget)
Srt4's (at least one out east)
Thought there was a late 80's/early 90's gm v6 auto running around out east, along with a truck of some sort
No mazdaspeed 3

Probably the one that comes to mind is Martin Walter and his turbo 240sx. Looks like a sr20det swap is in his future (unless I am mistaken , but I thought he turbocharged the stock 2.4.) he's been rallying up a storm. Hurts some competitors in the US out east as well.

So there are a couple of people who will be pretty hardup nationally. Nothing stopping them from competing regionally though.
 

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Dramamine is for DramaQueens
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Discussion Starter #4
As noted on another site, there is nothing stopping the regional championships from retaining existing classes or modifying limits. (IE: no restrictors or running 2.5 forced induction)

ALSO, and this is big, The CARS board isn't insular or autocratic. Even though there was a lot of work over several years to get to these rules, talk directly to your region directors and express your concerns, if you have them. (2.5L limit for forced induction could come out of it - can't say for sure but nothing will happen without feedback.)
 

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Sold to Ontario

Sold to Ontario
The more you know! Obviously, they were both for sale. Didn't realize they had actually gone anywhere. Sort of slipped off into compiling a list of who it would effect.
 

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Typical large, convoluted, slow process results in a decision that equates to less diversity, fewer options and in the long run, higher costs for competitors...well done....well done...I'll get skewered for the opinion...but that's fine. Bring it.
 

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Talking points: (I know Keith's caveat about the forums NOT being directed to the people in charge... this is a question for us commoners.

Will ALS be allowed under the 4wd Production?

Apparently 2wd Open has no minimum weight?

Apparently everyone in a Subaru and Mitsu has to pull out their diff controllers (according to Electronic controls section, this one has always confused me.)

No more adjusted displacement at all?

"Tolerances" is in reference to compression ratios?
 

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It's CARS sandbox and they are well within their right to do as they please. I don't think its as big a deal with southerners going white as You all coming down. If your folk have enough $$$$ to come play down here, you're probably runing CARS National. I can't see it being too apealing to bring your northern knife to a southern gunfight....
 

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Certainly they are in their right to do as they please. The argument is whether its a smart move--and an ancillary argument being--that you sat down and took what? 2 or three years? to come up with this solution for a problem that doesn't exist...
 

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Martin Walter's 240 is already an SR20DET. It is not a turbo'd 2.4. I asked him a few years ago and that is what he told me.

Yes, the Volvo is here in Ontario - The owner had it out a couple of years ago at Pines but not since then.

I think excluding SRT-4's is a mistake. Not a lot of them, but still.
 

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R6+ / Cr, Sheeps Maybe
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why no turbo charged product 2wd? ................makes no sense.

Colin Armstrong
Looking at Ford's trend of the ecoboost family of engines and who knows what the imagineers at Honda, Mazda, Vw etc have up their sleeves I think smaller displacement forced induction is what's going to be seen going forward. In the hands of the gearheads who knows what we'll see. The 202 hp 1.3L Ecoboost that lapped the Nurburgring in 7 min 22 sec (in a 1100 lb tube chassis) highlights my point. That thing in a production fiesta (slated for 2014 model year) could be deadly.
 

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why no turbo charged product 2wd? ................makes no sense.

Colin Armstrong
I would guess so that they can make it a true entry level class. and as Kevin noted look what you can do with 2.0L turbo. You can buy an Explorer with one. Imagine what the 2.0L Ecoboost could do in a car vs. say the 2.3L NA Ford.
 

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max,max, of the CR left2
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Don't know about Canada, but try 1.2 turbo with 7 gears (dsg) skoda fabia (VW) it's flying, cheap and great for new guy in the sport.
Maybe it would help to talk to manufacturies before not allowing forced aspirated engines. I know that Canadian market is specific, but it could change in the near future (globalization), maybe it would be good to keep the gate open in the roule book.

Cheers now from Poland.

Tomasz
 

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There has ALWAYS been entry level choices...these rules do not make MORE entry level choices, they make less. And running a bunch of cars around with highly strucng turbos is a sure way to promote engine failures and drive up costs....This is short sighted and not condusive to better competition.
 

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Just a few answers...

First of all when CARS set out to review the car classes they looked at what each class was supposed to offer the sport and competitors and possible sponsors. Open 2WD and particularly Production 2WD class was possibly the class where we spent the most time with the rules's committee to ensure it would hit the intended target. This target was for P-2WD to be the entry level class, a class that is inexpensive to start with, less expensive than all the other 3 classes to maintain, make the cars more fun to drive and a little quicker that before but also not allow this class to have a particular make or model that would have such an advantage that it would make it instantly a one car class.

You should not look at these changes from the point of view of "who does it exclude" because no matter what rules you come up with you will be excluding someone, I guarantee it. Worse yet if you try to include everyone you will always end up with a class where one car will have the most advantage making it a one horse race; we don't want that either. Everyone should look at this class from the point of view of how many does it include and how it protects the drivers that are in that class to do a specific job; which is to develop themselves as great drivers. It is not about driving the fastest car.

What CARS envisions is for P-2WD to be the entry level class where the a wide range of mid powered cars should be included and the type of cars that would entice drivers to learn skills and spend money doing so by competing in lots of events in an inexpensive manner instead of running higher powered cars which could lead to the rally car being parked more often than not thus the driver not getting rally miles.

Now regarding the question of why no Turbos on P-2WD;
Car manufacturing is changing at a rapid pace, especially after the 2008 world economic collapse which saw manufacturers pursue new models and engine designs. There is a world of new small turbocharged engines in the pipeline but we all thought that we need to see what exactly the small engine field will look like in a year or so before we institute rules that would include such engines.

Presently if CARS allow turbos it would have to be in the same range as Open 2WD; 2.0 liters, the range where most turbo engines are placed today, I believe THIS would be shortsighted. This would give a disadvantage to many cars like the Mini with its 1.6 turbo and all the many other engines in the pipeline in the 1.3T to 1.5T range which may become the most popular platforms (Fiat 500, Dodge Dart 1.4 turbo, Fiesta turbo, etc) so where do we draw the line? Competitors could apply and request for these engines to be included in P-2WD in the near future if they so desire. I personally wouldn't mind a 1.5 liter max displacement for forced induction.

MOST IMPORTANT, and this is something everyone most understand, for this class C.A.R.S. DOES NOT WANT high powered cars! This is the class whos purpose is to be the stepping stone into performance rally, the entry level where a lot of people with little or no skills will come in. People wanting a full performance class have three other classes to choose from.

In the end and as I said before you should look at how many cars these rules include rather than how many exclude. Everyone of us has a particular liking for a specific car brand, make or model but CARS is tying to make rules that would help the sport in general and not a particular car brand or team. I see a lot of talk about HP and other performance talk; P-2WD should not be about that. People should learn to be fast in slow cars before they think about how much HP can the shove into their next car. Just look at how fast Frank Sprongl was in his P-2WD Suzuki Swift! that is what drivers should strive for in P-2WD.

On the question of why allowing updating and backdating on P-4WD but not on P-2WD, the answer is simple: first of all these two classes are basically different with very different objectives. The P-4WD is already a faster class where I would expect teams with some experience (driving, building and maintaining) would be competing in. The new P-4WD is very similar to Rally America's Super Production... so unless there are a lot of people that can claim going that way was a huge mistake we would have to assume that allowing Subarus to backdate and update transmissions for example was a good move.

P-2WD however is a different animal; if CARS allowed updating and backdating we could easily end up seeing mods such as a 2012 2.5 liter VW engine shoved into a 2200 lb 1991 Golf shell. This is the type of abortion we do not want to see in this particular class. CARS does not want to turn this one class into one that you immediately have to change your drivetrain in order to be half ass competitive... there is plenty of room for that in all the other classes.

When it comes to OPEN 2WD, I believe it is a good policy to allow forced induction on engines up to 2000cc while allowing larger displacement (2500cc) for engines without the advantage of forced induction. This is a good way to balance the playing field a bit better and allow for driver skills to make up the difference. This should result on a more interesting competition allowing a wider range of cars to be in contention than in the past.

I hope this helps with some people's questions and concerns,

Jorge
 

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Mä meen vittu sinne!
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MOST IMPORTANT, and this is something everyone most understand, for this class C.A.R.S. DOES NOT WANT high powered cars! This is the class whos purpose is to be the stepping stone into performance rally, the entry level where a lot of people with little or no skills will come in. People wanting a full performance class have three other classes to choose from.
Most important, and this is something that people seem to never understand, P class SHOULD be designed for people with a shit ton of experience to come compete with manufacturer backed cars! (ACP in a Scion or Duplessis in a Fiesta or Sprongl in a Swift, etc.)
Entry level should be in a car that costs minimal to purchase and destroy and replace and those drivers should be spending a few years building speed and crashing cars at their REGIONAL events before showing up as a NATIONAL competitor and putting on a driving exhibition worthy of pure ridicule.

The requirement of a restrictor in a 2WD car is possibly the WORST precedent ever! I just hope because it is happening in Canada it will get overlooked elsewhere.

Rallying will not be saved (if you think it needs saved) nor will it grow/expand by recruiting a few manufacturers or random rich dudes to continue to spend 30-50k plus per year for a towing trophy. Until all events are having to set and enforce entry limits it seems to me like setting ridiculous restrictions on existing cars regardless of how many it affects, is a stupid move.

I've heard Martin Walter being named as the person this affects most. How would organizers feel if he takes 100% of his rallying business to the US from now on? How many new competitors will these rule changes bring in while alienating at least one of the most consistent and regular competitors?
 

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Mä meen vittu sinne!
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When it comes to OPEN 2WD, I believe it is a good policy to allow forced induction on engines up to 2000cc while allowing larger displacement (2500cc) for engines without the advantage of forced induction. This is a good way to balance the playing field a bit better and allow for driver skills to make up the difference. This should result on a more interesting competition allowing a wider range of cars to be in contention than in the past.
Did you guys pay ANY attention to Max Attack. We had 150 hp VWs beating 400+ hp Mustangs and SRT4s.
This sounds to me more like an effort to balance a theoretical playing field while ELIMINATING half the board. SRT4, BMW E36, Merkur, Volvo 240T, Mustangs, Trucks, etc. Might not be a huge contingent in Canadian rallying, but there's at least one of each of these within 100-200 miles or a Canadian event.
 

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SRT4, BMW E36, Merkur, Volvo 240T, Mustangs, Trucks, etc. Might not be a huge contingent in Canadian rallying, but there's at least one of each of these within 100-200 miles or a Canadian event.
I get to a fair number of events each year... and have done so consistently for the past couple of years. I saw an SRT4 once, and a 240 once.

That's it.

Should an entire rule structure be built around just 2 entries spread over several years?

Overall I like the new class structure. Personally I'd still like to see Open 4WD have a little taken off the very top... but on the other hand Prod 4 looks like it'll be especially interesting and competitive moving forward.
 
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