[spoier]

Interesting goings-on in Britain:
http://www.worldrallynews.info/cgi-bin/viewnews.cgi?newsid1047482758,16554,

Note he's talking about two issues in this article, not suggesting £50k cars for the clubman.

[hr]

Peugeot chief demands revolution

March 12, 2003

Mick Linford, Peugeot Sport?s Director in Britain, has called for a complete overhaul of the British Championship with the aim of reducing costs, following the cancellation of the intended first round, the Rally of Wales.

Linford argued that the cost of tackling international rallies had risen beyond the reach of most competitors.

?Forget works cars: look at entry fees for the average person. I think the MSA needs to sit down with the Forestry Commission, because they?re pricing the sport out,? he said.

But Linford also described admitting World Rally Cars as ?a major mistake? and suggested that a new formula could be the answer. He liked the idea of a two-litre, 200 bhp class controlled by an inlet restrictor, for both front- and rear-wheel-drive cars.

?The number of people who can afford a WR Car and are seriously interested is a select few. If we?re doing it for the future of British motorsport, it?s completely wrong. They?ve got to find a way of getting sensible cars for sensible money. You need to be able to buy a car for £50,000 and do the championship for £50,000. To fix it all, there are going to need to be some bold and radical decisions,? he said.

[hr]

Skye Poier
Seattle, WA

Vive le Prole-le-Ralliat!
http://www.rallyrace.net/

 

[grinner323]

Almost like what someone out west was talking about... group 222? Maybe they were on to something?
Philip J. Boer
[email protected]

 

[RichardM]

To translate into American dollars and distances:

You need to be able to buy a car for about $90,000 and be able to run the events for about $90,000 in travel expenses and entry fees.

Now given that if you drive from Dallas Texas to a northwest event, that is the equivalent of driving from London to Moscow, is this a proposal for a cost effective series that most of us could afford? In other words, assuming that most of us can afford that expensive of car, could we really travel the 30,000 miles or so required in the US to find all the ProRallies? Well if someone gave me $90,000 to spend doing the travel, I could afford it. Of course, I would still be driving my old Saab.

Or the originator of this idea has a different opinion of cost effective than I do. And I have an income of 6 figures in US dollars with no kids to save it for.

Richard Miller

 

[jandreini]

I think that $180,000/yr. to run a National Professional racing series is a bargain. Granted, some work needs to be done on the Professional end, but the situation is constantly improving. A good, PROFESSIONALLY RUN, rally team should be able to find sponsorship for at least half of that(I am speaking from experience here). This does not mean 1975 Volvos or ancient Peugeots. It is sad in many ways that many interesting older cars must be excluded, but how many older cars do you see in IRL, CART, or NASCAR? I believe the ever growing ClubRally program provides ample opportunity for those on a budget and/or with older cars to play.

I can visualize a single marque(my choice is SRT4's) class competing for a meaningful National Championship. Using the SRT4 as an example, $30,000 would build a competitive car. Add $10k for ten events at $1,000 entry per. Other expenses would vary, as we are a much larger country than England, and geography plays a big role in operating costs.

I see the Peugeot proposal as both reasonable and remarkably far-sighted. I would surely increase the number of British(and other) drivers who would have a chance to strut their stuff in front of an important audience(the manufacturers & team owners).

 

[joeg]

But what if you were not permitted to compete in your old SAAB, Richard?

 

[RichardM]

>But what if you were not permitted to compete in your old
>SAAB, Richard?

The present Saab is a 1985 model and hence good until 2005. A Saab 900 can be updated to 1993 model year. That would get me by for a few more years.

And we are planning on building a new car starting with a body in white using this years model.

And I am a ClubRallyist so no matter how old the Saab gets (if it lives that long <g>) it will be eligible.

The point is that travel costs are substantially more than entry fees for ProRally. As stated above, a good professional budget for ProRally is $180,000 a year. I can't afford that.

Well maybe I can afford it after this weekend. The Lotto is up over $20 mil.

Richard

 

[Kartwheel]

RE:

>I think that $180,000/yr. to run a National Professional
>racing series is a bargain.

I agree. Keep in mind, they are talking about a REAL Pro series not what we call "Pro". I am pretty confident that Mitsubishi, Prodrive, and Hyundai all spent more than 90k/90k last year. Hyundai would probably still be here if they could run the series for 90k/90k.

The point of that whole thing is not, however, the particular dollar (pounds) amount you want to throw around, its the intent, desire, to have reasonable limits on cost, therefore more equal competition. Over here the powers that be want, and are, going in the other direction traveling down a road the UK has already gone down and realized is a bad idea. Why make the same mistake?

Seems glaringly obvious to me, but I could be missing something.

 

[PORFan]

RE:

Maybe this is just my newbie-ness shining through, but wouldn't the reduced mileage (kilometer-age?) needed to get to each UK event drive one area of costs down? It seems to me that if less than, say, 500 miles was all a competitor had to drive, then money could be re-allocated for other purposes (like driving a shiny new car.)

BTW, I'm in the "thinking about it" stages of buying a '93 900 to flog in ClubRally. Hopefully there'll still be some Swedish competition out there when I get around to it... }>

 

[RichardM]

RE:

Well, I finished 3rd in G5 with a C900T in CRNC and John Groo finished 2nd in G2 with a NA C900. Plus there are several other crazy people driving Saabs up in the northeast.
Richard

 

[Rich Smith]

Good Lessons Learned

Skye,

Interesting. The Peugeot proposal is intended to REDUCE the cost of the British Championship Series to something lower than it has already become. Even in Britain (rally-heaven), the advertising/sales return on high rally competition costs simply doesn't pencil.

This seems another good reason NOT to copy what's been going on across the pond.

Rich Smith

Vive le "Pro-le-Ralliat"

 

[John Vanlandingham]

State the goal and the various ways there become a bit clearer.

That's why you think you're missing something, Brian.

There is unclarity as to what the series is supposed to be.
>>I think that $180,000/yr. to run a National Professional
>>racing series is a bargain.
Why it's a deal at twice the price.
(but for who I don't know, tee hee)
>

>The point of that whole thing is not, however, the
>particular dollar (pounds) amount you want to throw around,
>its the intent, desire, to have reasonable limits on cost,
>therefore more equal competition. Over here the powers that
>be want, and are, going in the other direction traveling
>down a road the UK has already gone down and realized is a
>bad idea. Why make the same mistake?

They have failed because they didn't have that "turn around Guy" who "has the chops to get the job done, and thats not vacuous boast."
They didn't have the LEADERSHIP we are blessed with:
UNSERE BELEIBTE SPITZNER!!!!
And they failed to have exciting 30 minute infomericals!!!!
>
>Seems glaringly obvious to me, but I could be missing
>something.

Yes you are, your background of 20 years competition in the woods on motorcycles and on the Jetski-skis things was REAL competition, not a contrived extended advertising opportunity.
There was mass participation nation wide, and depth within the class with DOZENS, even 65+ of entries in single classes and as such, it is easy to emphsize the RIDER who beats everyone else.

There is no stated goal of what the US series is SUPPOSED it show or to use the silly longer word "SHOWCASE".

Just what are we trying to show in our curerent stricture?

Currently the most obvious thing is that the trend is toward a filler fields of extremely affluent guys driving mildly put very mediocrely topped off with a few imported hired guns who are faster 'n sheet. The mediocre boys can have lackeys tow theur cars to events and merely by motoring thru, do well in the year end series points standings.

If we were to attempt to "showcase " driving talent, then this or the more detail suggestions going around for 10 years towards then the ideas detailed in the current Gp222 iteration of the old original Gp2 class who be obviously the direction to go.

But nobody really stops to think what the whole point of what this stuff we do in the woods is supposed to show or prove.

That's the first point we need to address.

State the GOAL and the various means to arrive there become a bit clearer.



John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

 

[Kartwheel]

RE: State the goal and the various ways there become a bit clearer.

I dont care if there are (in Johns words) overfunded cars being driven poorly, I dont really see that as the issue. Folks should be allowed to spend as much as they want, or as little to achieve their personal goals. I'd like to have my car driven to the event for me, but I cant so I dont dwell on it and I dont grudge the ones who can.

I guess what I dont understand, and I think John hit it on the head, is what our series is trying to "showcase". F1 is the car, NASCAR is the sponsor, WRC is I'd say half and half driver/car. F1 is mostly car, put Schumacher in a Minardi and see where he finishes, put anyone else in the Ferrari and see where they finish. In NASCAR it doesnt matter who is in what car, but which team got lucky and got the setup right. WRC seems to be some car, some driver/codriver.

So, what are we trying to showcase? Cars? Drivers? Sponsors? Bank accounts?

 

[dan ph]

>To translate into American dollars and distances:
>
>You need to be able to buy a car for about $90,000 and be
>able to run the events for about $90,000 in travel expenses
>and entry fees.
>
>Now given that if you drive from Dallas Texas to a northwest
>event, that is the equivalent of driving from London to
>Moscow, is this a proposal for a cost effective series that
>most of us could afford? In other words, assuming that most
>of us can afford that expensive of car, could we really
>travel the 30,000 miles or so required in the US to find all
>the ProRallies? Well if someone gave me $90,000 to spend
>doing the travel, I could afford it. Of course, I would
>still be driving my old Saab.
>
>Or the originator of this idea has a different opinion of
>cost effective than I do. And I have an income of 6 figures
>in US dollars with no kids to save it for.
>
>Richard Miller


Compare that $90,000 for a car compared to nearly $500,000 for a used WRC (I saw and ad for a Focus WRC for about 300,000 UK Pounds). That proposal would make the British Rally Championship far more affordable. That one WRC will get 1.5-2 seasons. A fair deal for one of the top national championships, I think.

 

[spoier]

RE:

>Maybe this is just my newbie-ness shining through, but
>wouldn't the reduced mileage (kilometer-age?) needed to get
>to each UK event drive one area of costs down?

Not for "Pro" teams - its just the cost of gas. Long distances have more impact on poor club schmucks who have to take time off from their "real jobs" to tow across the country.

Skye Poier
Seattle, WA

Vive le Prole-le-Ralliat!
http://www.rallyrace.net/

 

[Dave Kean]

RE:

>>Maybe this is just my newbie-ness shining through, but
>>wouldn't the reduced mileage (kilometer-age?) needed to get
>>to each UK event drive one area of costs down?
>
>Not for "Pro" teams - its just the cost of gas. Long
>distances have more impact on poor club schmucks who have to
>take time off from their "real jobs" to tow across the
>country.

The fact that costs were getting too much for many was acknowledged last fall by the RACMSA and the organizing clubs. I've no idea what was implemented, but they proposed a realignment of the BRC, BNC and the BTRDA (the top clubman series for non-homologated cars) series. Along with a number of cost reduction measures.

Most of the changes were for 2004 with some to be put in place this year.

I cant find it now but I recall the proposal included limiting the BRC champion to S1600 and S1400 cars, BNC to Group N and so on.

Also remember the BRC rounds have recce that can take an additional 2 days, at some rallies you were there from Tuesday night untill Sunday, which even with the more limited travel distances (longest tow I've ever done in the UK was 9 hours) still meant 4 days of vacation and 5 or 6 nights of hotel.

Part of the proposed cost reduction for the BRC was to have recce the weekend before the rally (most events had it on the Wednesday and Thursday before the event).

 

[RichardM]

RE:

Indeed, it is the time away from work that gets expensive. 100 Acre Wood cost me 6 days of pay. Well, actually 3. The other 3 were getting snowed in before we made it out of Missouri and then getting iced in here at home. Still expensive.
Richard

 

[wvonkessler]

Cost Sharing - The Democrat Model

Folks, its real simple as far as Pro events in the US go. Manufacturer teams pay a premium to play. Look at, for example, the Acropolis Rally (granted, it is WRC, not National):

Entry fee for Teams registered for the World Rally Championship:
2 cars: US $21,700 4 cars: US $35,000 3 cars: US $29,200

Car supported by a manufacturer: US $5,800

All other entries
With the optional advertising: Private entrant $2900.00
Without the optional advertising: Private entrant $4500.00

There is absolutely no reason that the manufacturers should not underwrite the non-supported teams by paying higher fees.

The same logic should apply to event insurance rates (if we want to get the SCCA involved). Part of the National Event insurance coverage (as paid in the higher manufacturer entry fees), should be earmarked to reduce insurance coverage costs to competitors in free-standing club rallies.

Wilson

 

[jandreini]

RE: Cost Sharing - The Democrat Model

Amen. However, we don't know what the Manufacturer entries are REALLY paying. That goes directly to Denver, uh.. Topeka.

 

[wvonkessler]

RE: Cost Sharing - The Democrat Model

>Amen. However, we don't know what the Manufacturer entries
>are REALLY paying. That goes directly to Denver, uh..
>Topeka.

Its interesting, under FIA rules, the amount paid to the FIA by the manufacturer teams contesting the WRC is known . . . its around a quarter million dollars a year. This is above and beyond entry fees. I can't imagine that Mitsubaru is paying the SCCA more than $25K apiece.

Since rally organizers are not the SCCA, but the organizers, there just has to be a concerted effort on their part to equalize the pain between the well-to-do, and the not so well-to-do. The organizers set their fees based upon their costs. Look at Cherokee, which has a marginally higher entry fee for works teams, and also a lower fee for club rallyists.

Its just a matter of skewing the numbers a bit. For example, 8 National Rounds this year, 90 competitors a round, 5 of which are manufacturer. $10,000.00 per manufacturer entry spread among remaining 85 cars is a reduction in the entry fee of $588.00 per car.

Oh, in a perfect world.

Wilson

 

[SeanKHotay]

Saabs in competition

& there soon may be a Saab in competition in PORfan's neck of the woods...