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don't cut
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Discussion Starter #1
Situation:
Very muddy, very narrow road.

First car clears the stage.

Second car gets stuck in the mud between two trees. No way around. Extremely time consuming extraction by the competitors. All competitors then transit the stage and into service.

Who wins the rally?
 

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>Situation:
>Very muddy, very narrow road.
>
>First car clears the stage.
>
>Second car gets stuck in the mud between two trees. No way
>around. Extremely time consuming extraction by the
>competitors. All competitors then transit the stage and into
>service.
>
>Who wins the rally?

Best total time on ALL the stages.
 

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>Situation:
>
>First car clears the stage.
>All competitors then transit the stage and into
>service.
>
>Who wins the rally?

All competitors will transit the stage and receive for a stage time the *last* completed stage time. In your situation, all competitors would receive the stage time of the first car (since it was the last car to clear the stage).

Then, proceed with the above mentioned process, best total time for ALL stages, etc.
 

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Retired Rally Photographer
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Not sure about who wins the rally. How about the following.

1. If a certain % or more of the field (cars starting that stage, whether regional or national) gets held up at an incident, then the stage is tossed.

or

2. Last car who makes it through before the incident gets their time. Everyone else who gets held up at the incident gets a time based on their speed factor. Example: If a 0.93 is the last who gets through clean and the person behind blocks the road, then everyone who got held up at the incident (not held at the start) gets a time based on the 0.93's time adjusted for their speed factor. Hopefully the start would be held for some cars so that when the incident is cleared, they can have their own clean runs. If a speed factor is not had by someone, then give them the average times of the person in front and behind them.

This will keep the 21st car on the road from getting the fast persons time and the 22nd car on the road will have to get their own time from their own run (could be a big difference).

That's my $0.02 cuz JC said I had a good idea in another thread.

Pete
 

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Would you have called Force Majeure on this one?

Last car on the road, safely passes and negotiates a hill where 6-8 cars are stuck in snow or can't get up the hill because of ice. The stage is still hot. Get a time for the stage and then find out that tail end Charlie is penalised the same time as the cars that were stuck!

Go figure!


Can't see me in your mirrors?
I must be in front of you!
 

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Isn't it true that the organizers have a lot of latitude in dealing with these types of situations?

Some people talk like the organizers are obligated to apply force majeure to every situation in which it could possilby be used. An organizer may choose a better solution if he deems it appropriate, right?
 

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don't lift over crest > dust
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Pete, what are you referring to? I remember a rally where something like that happened. Did you attend a similar rally?

Cable
 

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>Pete, what are you referring to? I remember a rally where
>something like that happened. Did you attend a similar rally?
>
>Cable

I don't recall a race that happened. I just kind of whipped it together as I was reading this thread. I also combined all the incidents I've personally seen on stage where cars get stuck/delayed for some reason, and what the most fair way of dealing with it is.

Pete
 

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>Would you have called Force Majeure on this one?
>
>Last car on the road, safely passes and negotiates a hill
>where 6-8 cars are stuck in snow or can't get up the hill
>because of ice. The stage is still hot. Get a time for the
>stage and then find out that tail end Charlie is penalised the
>same time as the cars that were stuck!
>
>Go figure!
>
>
>Can't see me in your mirrors?
> I must be in front of you!

Sounds like Laughlin 2001. Stage 2 if I remember correctly.
 

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Just to confirm for my own info: if one car can get by, that undoes any force majeure situation, right? The way I've heard it before is "if one car can get through the problem, then it's not force majeure."

It's vitally important that everyone understands what both the red cross and force majeur mean.

And - this is editorial and anecdotal only - I'm an avid reader of rally history and the idea of what was "passable" on the 1968 Canadian Winter Rally seems to be different from what we think is passable on a modern rally. And maybe we need to refine that?

ACP
Flirting with the laws of physics.
 

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>Pete, what are you referring to? I remember a rally where
>something like that happened. Did you attend a similar rally?
>


I was in that rally!!!, I was the first 2WD to make it up the hill, however, at the end of the night, they took 22 minutes off the ones who didn't make it, but didn't adjust mine, Go figure, fortunately, I still won. It was in 2001.

Tony Chavez
 

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>I was in that rally!!!, I was the first 2WD to make it up the
>hill, however, at the end of the night, they took 22 minutes
>off the ones who didn't make it, but didn't adjust mine, Go
>figure, fortunately, I still won. It was in 2001.
>
>Tony Chavez
>

Ray J and I had snow tires on the Golf and were making it up without problem until we got stuck behind Richard Byford about half way up. That cost us a bunch of time. Ultimately the other teams that got backed up there gave us a push since we were the only ones with the snows and they figured we'd be able to make it through to the end. The decision to invoke force majeur took about 2 minutes off of our time (although a clean run would have knocked off quite a bit more given how long we were stuck at the back up). I believe we were running second to you guys in G2 when the electrics crapped the bed prior to the start of the 40 miler that was to end the next day.x( Oh how I don't miss those Ray J DNFs.}(

Regards,
Brian
 

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So long & thx for all the fish
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Ultimately the
>other teams that got backed up there gave us a push since we
>were the only ones with the snows and they figured we'd be
>able to make it through to the end.

IIRC yours was the car that sent a small stone zipping into my shin as we pushed you on up the hill. I learned a valuable lesson about where not to stand while pushing a rally car. The best part was I didn't realize until I was peeling off my suit back at the hotel that the rock had cut my shin. Subsequently it bled into the lining, congealed, and felt extra good when it ripped off as I pulled my leg free from the suit!:eek:

After I was done screaming like a schoolgirl my wife just gave me one of those "and this is your idea of fun?" looks. Now the scar turns purple when its cold out.

Once the road in front of us was clear we made it up no problem. Such is life.

Jonathan Schiller
 

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<<< Just to confirm for my own info: if one car can get by, that undoes any force majeure situation, right? The way I've heard it before is "if one car can get through the problem, then it's not force majeure." >>>

That was exactly my understanding of it too. I argued until I was blue in the face, but I got nowhere.



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I must be in front of you!
 

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>Pete, what are you referring to? I remember a rally where
>something like that happened. Did you attend a similar rally?
>
>Cable

Nah, you must be thinking of a different event! Which one are you referring to?


Can't see me in your mirrors?
I must be in front of you!
 

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In my earlier post I used the word "organizer" where I should have used the word "steward."

The last sentence of the Force Majeure rule is:
"The event steward has the authority to adjust a competitor's time on a stage or transit if the steward feels that the safety of another competitor was at stake."

Safety of workers & spectators seems to have been overlooked in the rule as it was written, but maybe wording something like "safety of all people present" should be included in the 2006 rulebook (or whenever insurance companies start to take notice).

Anyway, whenever there are competitors climbing into their cars with seatbelts unbuckled in the middle of a stage road, not to mention others still walking in the road, I'd say a steward has authority to adjust times.

As competitors, and as customers of Rally America, we should request that stewards use their full latitude allowed within this rule to promote safe behavior in situations such as occured at Snowdrift '05.

Dave
 

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>IIRC yours was the car that sent a small stone zipping into my
>shin as we pushed you on up the hill. I learned a valuable
>lesson about where not to stand while pushing a rally car.
>The best part was I didn't realize until I was peeling off my
>suit back at the hotel that the rock had cut my shin.
>Subsequently it bled into the lining, congealed, and felt
>extra good when it ripped off as I pulled my leg free from the
>suit!:eek:

You probably took the rock that was meant for me.;) I was there pushing too (It being my ride and all.) and I know Ray J had it pegged. I would love to run that stage just once in the dry. What fun.
 

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>Just to confirm for my own info: if one car can get by, that
>undoes any force majeure situation, right? The way I've heard
>it before is "if one car can get through the problem, then
>it's not force majeure."

Don't you mean that it IS force majeure? In that case the cars that couldn't get by are affected by force majeure, so the organizer has no obligation to adjust their stage time? Basically, if you encounter a situation of force majeure you are SOL. See 7.9 in the rulebook.

Adrian
 

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don't lift over crest > dust
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Pete M,

I was referring to 99 laughlin (the first one). I made it through in my crappy 79 rx where all the other guys were stuck, I think there were a dozen or so cars stuck on that hill. I argued til I was blue in the face, too. Ray thought the best way to handle the situation was to get the new zealand guy to get me drunk, which took most of the bitterness away.

If you have week to spend, i still have room in the truck for you to come along to 100aw.

Cable
 
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