Special Stage Forums banner

1 - 20 of 54 Posts
Joined
·
760 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
General Prescriptions for FIA Rally Championships,
Appendix III Safety,
2.2 Special Stage Recommendations:

2.2.3 RECONNAISSANCE IS CONSIDERED A SAFETY FACTOR

This has been FIA's position for decades.

It is the opposite of some previous opinions
expressed on this forum.

There is no need to think, incorrectly and at variance
with reality, that reconnaissance somehow increases
the risks in rallying......
 

·
straight at T
Joined
·
2,472 Posts
>General Prescriptions for FIA Rally Championships,
>Appendix III Safety,

2 Safety of the Public

>2.2 Special Stage Recommendations:
>
>2.2.3 RECONNAISSANCE IS CONSIDERED A SAFETY FACTOR
>
>This has been FIA's position for decades.
>
>It is the opposite of some previous opinions
>expressed on this forum.
>
>There is no need to think, incorrectly and at variance
>with reality, that reconnaissance somehow increases
>the risks in rallying......

If you are going to quote a rule, please quote it in context. This rule is part of the reccomendations for increasing the safety of the spectators (NOT the competitors).

It doesn't suggest WHY reconnaissance is considered a safety factor, or, in fact, whether it means that one should also think about spectator safety DURING reconnaissance. The French text is just as vague.

Note that this takes its text from Appendix H Section 14 (or vice versa) but the two are not exactly worded the same. The English and French text in Appendix H differ more than the English and French in the General Prescriptions. In the Appendix H French text it does appear that the implication is that reconnaissance is a positive factor for spectator safety.

Note also that the rules in the General Prescriptions seem to imply that reconnaissance is an element of the event. There doesn't appear to be a provision for an international event without reconnaissance, so there isn't a statement one way or the other about its safety implications for competitors.

Regardless of the above, I do consider that reconnaissance can enhance safety.

Adrian
 
Joined
·
760 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
>>General Prescriptions for FIA Rally Championships,
>>Appendix III Safety,
>
>2 Safety of the Public
>
>>2.2 Special Stage Recommendations:
>>
>>2.2.3 RECONNAISSANCE IS CONSIDERED A SAFETY FACTOR
>>
>>This has been FIA's position for decades.
>>
>>It is the opposite of some previous opinions
>>expressed on this forum.
>>
>>There is no need to think, incorrectly and at variance
>>with reality, that reconnaissance somehow increases
>>the risks in rallying......
>
>If you are going to quote a rule, please quote it in context.
>This rule is part of the reccomendations for increasing the
>safety of the spectators (NOT the competitors).
>
>It doesn't suggest WHY reconnaissance is considered a safety
>factor, or, in fact, whether it means that one should also
>think about spectator safety DURING reconnaissance. The French
>text is just as vague.
>
>Note that this takes its text from Appendix H Section 14 (or
>vice versa) but the two are not exactly worded the same. The
>English and French text in Appendix H differ more than the
>English and French in the General Prescriptions. In the
>Appendix H French text it does appear that the implication is
>that reconnaissance is a positive factor for spectator
>safety.
>
>Note also that the rules in the General Prescriptions seem to
>imply that reconnaissance is an element of the event. There
>doesn't appear to be a provision for an international event
>without reconnaissance, so there isn't a statement one way or
>the other about its safety implications for competitors.
>
>Regardless of the above, I do consider that reconnaissance can
>enhance safety.
>
>Adrian
>
>

Adrian,

Appendix III is the document dealing with safety and outlining
the safety recommendations and the content of the safety plan.
This is what we need to follow in preparing the International Rally New York. It clearly states that FIA, in its Special Stage
recommendations, considers reconnaissance to be a safety factor.

No need to chastise me for not reprinting extensive FIA regulations
that may be pertaining to this issue.

No need to equivocate on what "is" is either.

Ivan Orisek
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,757 Posts
So Ivan,

What started this post?? Is this a repsonse to something?? I'm mainly being nosey, not expressing anything important....

Regards,
Mark B.
 

·
Four tree two remember Andrew
Joined
·
1,633 Posts
>So Ivan,
>
>What started this post?? Is this a repsonse to something?? I'm
>mainly being nosey, not expressing anything important....
>
>Regards,
>Mark B.

Snowed in in the Catskills, dark dreary, cold. Haven't you seen The Shining? "All work and no play makes Ivan a dull boy." At least that's my theory.

Poor Olga.

Wilson
 
Joined
·
760 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
>So Ivan,
>
>What started this post?? Is this a repsonse to something?? I'm
>mainly being nosey, not expressing anything important....
>
>Regards,
>Mark B.

Mark,

There is no hidden meaning.

The sole purpose of this post was to make it known that
FIA, in its recommendations for setting up special stages
and preparing a safety plan, considers RECONNAISSANCE
A SAFETY FACTOR in the sense that reconnaissance
increases safety. Without quoting extensively from these
regulations, which are available at www.fia.com, in another
section of these regulations dealing with reconnaissance,
FIA states that ORGANIZERS MUST GIVE COMPETITORS OPPORTUNITY
TO FAMILIARIZE THEMSELVES WITH THE COURSE.

All this flies in the face of those opinions in US rallying
that hold that reconnaissance somehow increases the hazards
of rallying. As somebody asked on this forum: "Why would
an insurance company feel better if we do not know how
the next turn looks?"

That is the upside - safety.

The downside is in the increased cost and requirements on time
both for competitors and organizers. (Participation in
reconnaissance is always optional and it is never a condition
of entry.) None of this has ever been a sufficient reason
for banning reconnaissance and indeed the rest of the world
has been doing reconnaissance for decades with some notable
exceptions.

For instance, they have no official reconnaissance in Finland,
out of all places, below the national championship level.
The truth is, however, that in Finland they have a rally every
single weekend of the year, they often run over the same stages
repeatedly, there is a lot of unauthorized reconnaissance
and practice, and drivers memorize pace notes for special stages,
as you may have seen on TV.

Regards,

IO
 
Joined
·
760 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
>Yup. Haul out the old chestnut "SAFETY" when you want
>something, like to go faster. Not even the FIA is immune.

This is entirely wrong.
It is specifically the kind of misunderstanding and the myth,
perpetuated by oldtimers raised on "blind" rallying,
I was attempting to dispel by my original post above.

IO
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,443 Posts
Yep. Every rally I go to, competitors get out of their cars at service and remark about how safe they feel using notes. No one has ever mentioned how much faster he was able to go.

A-a-a-h! Easter bunny alert!!!!
 
Joined
·
760 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
>Yep. Every rally I go to, competitors get out of their cars
>at service and remark about how safe they feel using notes. No
>one has ever mentioned how much faster he was able to go.
>
>A-a-a-h! Easter bunny alert!!!!

So, you are still agruing against Stage Notes used without
Reconnaissance and we are talking about full Reconnaissance.....
 

·
I am not here anymore
Joined
·
2,798 Posts
>Yep. Every rally I go to, competitors get out of their cars
>at service and remark about how safe they feel using notes. No
>one has ever mentioned how much faster he was able to go.

Uh, when I am in a fast car, I do go on about how much safer I feel with notes and, inversely, how unsafe I feel with just a route book. I don't do it at service, but the topic has come up on several occasions.

Ask anyone who spoke to me just before Prescott last year. I was co-driving for a newbie rally driver (so no stage notes) in a seriously fast car. I was very concerned about not knowing what was over the crests and around the bends (until I found out that the driver was (is!) very level-headed behind the wheel and wasn't gonna get in over his head). I begged for notes and got a serious "you only want them to go fast" attitude in response.

I absolutely consider notes (stage and pace) and recce a safety thing (that also allows you to go faster).

alan
 

·
codriveur
Joined
·
1,385 Posts
Joe,

It has taken me a few years to get a handle on this board as ego's, personalities, and histories are in every corner. It has taken me 2 years to get the hang of the adgendas, concerns, and issues that the "regulars" have & learn contemporary US rally politics and where everyone is coming from. I've never engaged you but I always read your stuff and try to learn because you have a rather deep backgound.(to gloss over the details)

In what context do you think Ivan made his original post? Could it be in the light he has for years fought up hill for a rally in the NY metro area, against SCCA et.al, addressed the concerns of safety with requiring notes/optional recce/dealing with a lot of heat locally and in his own way trying to bring to the minor leagues of rally (that is what we are, A thru AAA) up to the same mindset as WRC and other top events? He has been beat on for his endorsement of recce. I believe he was only trying to show why he endorses it and why he wants us to embrace it.

Maybe he doesn't read that way but I am pretty sure that is his intent.

Maybe having a 1st generation German father let's me read his post and understand it. It's called tough European love.:) :)

Bernie

...and if I'm wrong I still have a point.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,757 Posts
Well if the FIA rules require reconnaisance to be offered for an International event, then that settles the question, regardless of whether one believes if we are safer with it or not. End of rational babbling.

Now for the irrational babbling:

1) The words 'consider' and 'feel' prove nothing either way. I have become more and more curious as to whether the death and serious injury rates have been higher over the last 25-30 years in the US or in European national events that have use notes and/or reconnasiance for a long time. I would think that would be telling since we have had a long period of consistent methods in each case to compare. Anyone have any sort of quantitative handle on this?

2) Pure opinion: I think a lot of these expressions for or against have to do with confort with a way of doing things on one side of the pond or the other.

3) We ran our first rally in AWD at Sandhills. We used stage notes. I can tell you in all honesty that once I adjusted a bit to the car, I was using the notes purely for more speed. We all know full and well that if something had snapped in the steering, a tire had blown, an errant civilian car was around a turn, it would be worse with the higher speed.
But, also in all honesty, we have been on those roads so often that we have essentially done a pseudo-reconnaisance. I have enough time behind the rally wheel to say objectively that this pseudo reconnaisance did improve safety as we knew what to expect in the general road situation.

Regards,
Mark B.

PS: I would run off with Olga if I could, but don't worry Ivan, my wife would not give me permission. She is the sweetest lady in the world.
 
Joined
·
760 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I do not know how to put it more simply than this:

US is the only place in the world where it is possible
to discuss the "advantages" of NOT doing reconnaissance
with a straight face.

The only reason is in three decades of blind rallying
while most of the world has been doing recce.

We need to get over it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
724 Posts
Ivan let me tell you something that I have told just about everyone that i have had this conversation with. Americans always think that they are right, their way is best, and that everyone else it wrong. Just look at the stupid cage rules that say sill bar but not you must have sill and door bars? Am I the only person that thinks this is totally stupid? THe arguements against notes is typical american resistance to all things from anywhere outside the 50 states except Japanese cars. We havebeen pumped up and told that "this is the best nation on earth", "we are good", "we are the smartest most powerful people in the world" so why would you ever expect for people to take the suggestions of "those pansy Euros" or the FIA that "doesn't care about safety". Basically Americans are not an open people and if you need no other example look at how we behave in foreign countries, "god can you imagine that nobody in this country speaks english?" why would you think they would be open to new ideas.

Now that i am finished with my rant let me re-state my feelings. Route Books are more than adequate in most but not all production and group 2 cars because they are frankly slow. The crest unmentioned in the route book that you hit at 45mph is a hell of a lot more significant when you are doing 90mph. I do think there is a potential for crews to get lost in notes so I do think Recce with organizer supplied notes which competitors can notate is the best option for safety. I think and I always have thought that people are more worried about any advantage gained with Recce by other competitors then safety issues. Notes are here to stay and while many would love to see rally return to the days of cheap fun with jsut a few close friends are living in a past that no longer exists. Everything costs more these days, education, gas, homes............ So move into the future.
 

·
50 L3/CR 70 Yump 200
Joined
·
997 Posts
Well said Alan...

What we have not done is defined "safety" .

The last blind rally for the big boys was the RAC (umm, Lombard Rally G.B.? - forget the year - Dave Keen, help me out here. )

The first year they allowed recce the number of offs was cut by something like 80% !
No doubt this is safer eh?

HOWEVER,

It was the first time in 8 or 9 years they had to scramble
medical - and it had to be done more than once!
Safer? (NO)

So boys and girls - we need to consider all aspects of this.
Little offs = less chance for injury
Big offs = greater chance for lawyers

More lawyers = less rally (more $$, however you want to look at it).

NOW

Don't get me wrong - I love notes - Both Jemba (REAL Jemba, not Jemba style) and Recce.
For me PERSONALLY, the Jemba notes are the best option- and I love being able to do recce.
I am not trying to start a war on recce vs notes (and if I did, please start a new thread).
Just stating some facts and history that I'm sure we're doomed to repeat.

Jeff Secor
(your mileage may vary) :) :eek: :(
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,373 Posts
Good arguements for both sides. I think a big consideration is the frequent re-use of stages every year and the proliferation of in car cameras. It's pretty easy to pop in last events video and rerun the stage. Maybe not as good as recce but better than nothing. I am about to run my first event after a 12 year time-out. The stages have been used for years and most everyone knows them by heart, except us. Puts me at a slight disadvantage. I don't really care but in days gone by I've put the hurt on out of area competitors by watching my own collection of videos before the event. In reality only new, unseen stages are truly blind anymore.

I do agree that making a mistake when you absolutely know the road is usually a really big mistake...but I've gone off just as hard on roads I didn't know.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
366 Posts
It's always good to see the safety card played, although it's a bit like crying wolf these days! Some would say the real attempt here is to copy what is being seen on TV.

The problem with notes is simple-people driving faster over their heads. This hardly solves or lessens safety issues.

We all agree that driving fast requires skill and there are not enough events in the USA to develop and maintain the skill for rally driving. With notes people tend to use the notes as the truth of the road---rather then having the skill to read the road and using the notes to reaffirm what they believe the road is doing to be true.

Notes are intended to be used properly in the later form with the skill that has already been developed, to take away second guessing one self.

Recce could be great but the time/cost side raise's more issue's.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,275 Posts
> The problem with notes is simple-people driving faster over
>their heads. This hardly solves or lessens safety issues.

You could say the same thing about people on blind rallies driving too fast.....

> We all agree that driving fast requires skill and there are
>not enough events in the USA to develop and maintain the skill
>for rally driving. With notes people tend to use the notes as
>the truth of the road---rather then having the skill to read
>the road and using the notes to reaffirm what they believe the
>road is doing to be true.

Jemba notes describe the road; pace notes from recce describe how where you should drive and how fast to take the corners.

> Notes are intended to be used properly in the later form with
>the skill that has already been developed, to take away second
>guessing one self.

If learned correctly, I think notes can even benefit novice drivers (though maybe not on the 1st or 2nd event).

> Recce could be great but the time/cost side raise's more
>issue's.

Recce works in Canada (BC) just fine. I've not had cost or time issues with it. Before you make a judgement about something, perhaps you should try it.

Reusing stages can really make it work.

Glenn
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
724 Posts
People seem intent on trying ot legislate intelligence here and that simply does not work. There are generally three people that rally, people that are having fun and going at their own pace excited to do well but not really willing to push and find the edge. People that run a little closer to the edge and push a little but are not running at the top. FInally you have people that are willing to find the edge, push when possible, and usually if these people have talent are either in the weeds or at the front. These are generalizations to say the least but my point is that fundamentally people are wired a certain way. Pat is wired one way and bruce brown another for example. Now that being said the people that say that we only bring out the safety card generally have absolutely no experience with the using their own notes or recce. IT is very easy to make judgements on the subject without ever trying it. I will state again that the issue most people have with Recce is about competitive advantages real or imagined that people think that others will gain over them.
 
1 - 20 of 54 Posts
Top