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Discussion Starter #1
Appendix J article 251, definitions:
2.7 Fuel tank
Any container holding fuel likely to flow by any means whatsoever
towards the main tank or the engine.


Appendix J, article 255, Gp A, S1600, WRC, etc:
5.7.3.2 Should the fuel tank be installed in the boot and the
rear seats removed, a fireproof and liquid-proof bulkhead must
separate the cockpit from the fuel tank.
In the case of twin-volume cars it will be possible to use a nonstructural
partition wall in transparent, non-flammable plastic
between the cockpit and the tank arrangement.
For twin-volume cars homologated from 01.01.98, with a fuel tank
installed in the luggage compartment, a fireproof and liquid-proof
case must surround the fuel tank and its filler holes.
For three-volume cars homologated from 01.01.98, a fireproof and
liquid-proof bulkhead must separate the cockpit from the fuel tank.
Nevertheless, it is recommended that this liquid-proof bulkhead be
replaced by a liquid-proof case as for twin-volume cars.

Appendix J article 254, Group N (N1-N4)
6.9 For twin-volume cars homologated from 01.01.98 with a fuel tank
installed in the luggage compartment, a fireproof and liquid-proof
case must surround the fuel tank and its filler holes.
For three-volume cars homologated from 01.01.98, a fireproof and
liquid-proof bulkhead must separate the cockpit from the fuel tank.
Nevertheless, it is recommended that this liquid-proof bulkhead be
replaced by a liquid-proof case as for twin-volume cars.

_______


The common ATL or Fuel safe containers are not "liquid proof", and do not "surround its filler holes". If you sealed the container seams, and modified it to cover the fill holes, then it would comply with the above rules.

We're not enforcing FIA rules, only trying to align our rules closer to theirs...and the FIA rules are pretty clear.

An ACCUS / FIA ruling will have no bearing on this, other than a point of illustration, since R/A is not an ACCUS member.
 

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don't cut
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Mike, I'm having trouble visualizing what a proper fuel cell setup would be for modern twin volume rally car. Could you maybe post or link to some pictures that would be examples of proper setups IN RALLY CARS (IMHO track cars are a whole different world).

I wanna work with you on this one, and I think people are blowing it out of proportion. I imagine it's a lot more simple than it sounds. As usual, a picture here would be worth a thousand words.

Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I can't scan it, but if you have the book "rally cars" by Reihard Klein,(many rally enthusiasts do) there are some nice fuel cell "liquid proof container" photos, particularly the Seat Ibiza on page 533, and a photo of a Lancia Integrale with a transparent bulkhead on page 485.

If I run across some on-line, I'll post them.
 

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The Scorpion King
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<<snipped for clarity>>
>
>The common ATL or Fuel safe containers are not "liquid proof",
>and do not "surround its filler holes". If you sealed the
>container seams, and modified it to cover the fill holes, then
>it would comply with the above rules.
>
>We're not enforcing FIA rules, only trying to align our rules
>closer to theirs...and the FIA rules are pretty clear.
>
>An ACCUS / FIA ruling will have no bearing on this, other than
>a point of illustration, since R/A is not an ACCUS member.
>

Mike,

If I were to seal the seams of my case and build a little tower structure over my fill plate that was welded to the top of the case and had a sealed cover and grommets for the fuel feed, return, and vent lines to come out of,would this meet the R/A rules? If so, I think that is well within the bounds of what I would call reasonable.

BTW, I have looked at that Ibiza picture many times, and I don't think that is quite what you want to hold up as an example. The cover over the central plate (which doesn't appear to be what is used for filling the cell) isn't sealed. I think it is just there to keep spare tires from being dropped on the AN fittings for the fuel feed and return lines. The picture of the Lancia is exactly what I am trying to avoid. It looks pretty, adds a lot of weight, interferes with ability to climb out of the car through the rear hatch, and will likely not do squat in the event of an accident.

--
John
 

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Discussion Starter #5
>
>If I were to seal the seams of my case and build a little
>tower structure over my fill plate that was welded to the top
>of the case and had a sealed cover and grommets for the fuel
>feed, return, and vent lines to come out of,would this meet
>the R/A rules? If so, I think that is well within the bounds
>of what I would call reasonable.
>
>John

Yes, that is reasonable. Be sure to also seal the welded seams on the sides of the can. Add a nipple to the can and vent the can through the floor if you like.
 

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Hi Mike and all,

I have been thinking about sealing compounds, and wonder that it might be good to consider what is known as fire caulking. It's is specifically used for sealing up risers (vertical tubes for cabling between floors) and wall penetrations in buildings; it is fire proof/resistant to a degree; we use it all the time in building cable installations to meet fire codes. It comes in a couple of varieties (pre-mox, or mix when used); you can get the premixed type in standard caulking tubes for $10 per tube.

What I don't know is how it holds up with aging and shock/vibration. I hope that anyone who has any insight on this aspect would comment.

Mark B.
 

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Dumb questions:
- What are '2 volume' and '3 volume' cars?
- What plastic is transparent and fire-prrof/resistant?

Thanks,
Mark B.
 

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>I hope that anyone who has any insight on
>this aspect would comment.


I don't know anything about this stuff, but.....

If I wanted to know about sealants for this type of thing I would contact aircraft people.
 

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Mark,

It holds up OK, it still has some elasticity after it is fully cured. Adhesion to polished metals is less than satisfactory and it turns unsightly yellowish.I recommend roughing up the surfases it will be applied on a little.

The FIREPROOF BULKHEAD in my Galant is sealed all around with it. There are some cracks and shrinking here and there but not a difficult fix with another tube of it. Takes a long time to cure and looks ugly. Naturally painting it would defeat the purpose so I left it yellowish.

Cheers
M.Samli
 

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Fire resistant plastics are polycarbonate sheets taht can be obtained from specialty plastics companies.

As far as I know DOW and DuPont makes both fire resistant and flame barrier clear plastics.

Long ago we had a complete partition made out of a Lexan looking but thinner material in out Metro 6R4. Similar material is used over the engine compartment of Ferrari F40.

Cheers
M.Samli
 

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As a buyer who orders plastics; call any good plastic supply house and the will have the material in stock it's very common. They will have spec sheets as well , it shouldn't take more than 10 minutes in the yellow pages to source.

Tom
 

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RE: Fire Caulking

This is generically known as intumnescent (sp?) material. This material remains pliable throughout its life. When exposed to a fire, the material expands to seal the opening it is in and prevent the passage of fire and smoke. Painting the material has virtually no impact on its effectiveness. This material is used in residential, commercial and industrial construction and is painted in probably 90% of installations.

This material is available in caulk tubes, sheets and other forms for a variety of uses.

My primary manufacturer for this product is 3M company.

Brad Odegard
 

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RE: Fire Caulking

I've used a fire sealant from Hilti.

http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/modules/prcat/prca_navigation.jsp?OID=-12266

Hilti has a wide array of fire products available, including sealants, foams, etc...

I'm not sure of their complance in Motorsport (if such a compliance is necessary), but as a commercial and residential contractor I've had no problems with them or their city imspections there of.

Edit - Not intended as a commercial endorsement !
 

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RE: Fire Caulking

Thanks everyone, I appreciate the comments. The 3M and Hilti products are the ones I am familiar with. Good to know that it will hold up to rallying, and that painting is an option.

Regards,
Mark B.
 
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