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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Today the FIA general council announced the WRC schedule and that they will pass detuning rules to go into effect for 2006 that will ban some of the sophisticated electronic systems and hydraulic controlled differentials. No details on the detuning protocols yet. Hopefully the detuning will allow more manufacturers to be competitive and participate and with the year advance hopefully the current manufacturers can adapt and continue their particiaption. S2000 still poses to be the death of manufacturer involvement.

Here is the schedule:
World Rally Championship 2005 Calendar
13 Oct, 17:50

21-23 January - - Rallye Monte Carlo (J)
11-13 February - - Uddeholm Swedish Rally (P)
11-13 March - - Corona Rally Mexico (J)
8-10 April - - Propecia Rally New Zealand (P)
29 April -1 May - - Supermag Rally Italia Sardinia (J)
13-15 May - - Cyprus Rally (P)
27-29 May - - Rally of Turkey (P)
17-19 June - - Acropolis Rally, Greece (J)
8-10 July - - Rally Argentina (P)
5-7 August - - Neste Rally Finland (J)
26-28 August - - OMV ADAC Rallye Deutschland (J)
16-18 September - - Wales Rally GB (P)
30 September - 2 October - - Rally Japan (P)
14-16 October - - Rallye de France - Tour de Corse (J)
28-30 October - - Rally de Catalunya - Espana (J)
11-13 November - - Telstra Rally Australia (P)

Junior Championship - eight events, drivers must nominate seven events (before 30 November) in which they will participate

Production Championship - eight events, drivers must nominate six events (before 30 November) in which they will participate.
 

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I, for one am glad that this detuning is going to happen. I'm sure that nearly every manufacturer would welcome going back to the "simple" days of rallying, carbs, 5 speed manual boxes, lsd, rear or front wheel drive, no computers, the list goes on. Cars that are relatively simple to work on and way cheaper parts to boot. I think that the sport would benefit and the competition would be far more intense. Thoughts? PS. As a side note, F1 has become so boring now, let's apply the same rules to them as well!





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Carbs? 2wd... yeah lets get rid of all of the technological advances that have made rally cars great and go back to the model A and T. I think that cutting costs is a good way and the sequential gearboxes are a pricy item... but i think they are cutting too much technology out. there has to be other ways....

just my 2 cents.
 

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<<<< there has to be other ways.... >>>>

Levi, the floor is yours.


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i don't know.... let me think about some ideas.... but then again maybe i am just afraid that the change will deter some manufactures instead of bring more in. a friend of mine had an idea about formula 1. he suggested that the drivers must change teams every 2 or 3 years. but then agin the team with the most money will be able to out perform others due to the ability to modify their program and platform for any driver.... I think that having a lower budget class is good, like s1600 or group N is a good idea. 2wd no turbo etc.. is a platform that can be heavily modified but the reliability would hopefully be better with out forced induction. However,... having a class for the big competitors to showcase THEIR ability and THEIR inginuity is what i don't want to loose. having a spec gearbox made by one company is ok but then, what about subaru,...? their gearbox will be what? what about the design that has gone into the wrx or evo or ford RS. now the manufacturer and their designated support company (prodrive, rallyart, M-sprot) must design a competitive motor that might not be in the companies line up. For example SUBARU. thake a way the turbo and you have the 2.5 or 2.2 or smaller yet the 1.8L motor. now to be competitive they must change their design to adapt the spec tranny. next they have to develop a good, powerful and reliable motor. .... what i am trying to say is that not every level of racing is fair... there will always be the low budget competior. look at SKODA. and their will always be a big competitor, subaru peugot etc.
and another thing... carburators were the work horse of many cars. however Fuel Injection is not only more reliable and efficient,. it can be less expensive to operate in the long run.

but again. what ever rules that dont kill rally can only make it sronger! right?

levi
 

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The problem is, technology is always going forward, which in some cases is a good thing. At the same time costs are spiralling ever upwards, which is never a good thing. Limits need to be imposed on both counts. These aren't really rallies anymore, they're just sprints with a lot of servicing. At the moment, WRC is just a spectacle, nothing less. Tell me where you or I can get our hands on cars with current technology? Not that I would want one because it goes back to cost.



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> The problem is, technology is always going forward, which
>in some cases is a good thing. At the same time costs are
>spiralling ever upwards, which is never a good thing. Limits
>need to be imposed on both counts.

True, but the moment you limit costs in one area, the wealthy teams will find ways to spend it in others...

>These aren't really
>rallies anymore, they're just sprints with a lot of
>servicing.

This is true, except that servicing is significantly reduced from the 2wd/carb era (no free service, no having mechanics waiting at the end of every stage...). The engineering on the cars is such that you don't need to work on the car as often and you can do more in the limited time and locations that you have.

I'd love to see Corsica go back to its 80-120km stages (50-75 miles). However, it becomes much more difficult to provide safety coverage, and you tend to get much larger gaps in the field (see below).

>At the moment, WRC is just a spectacle, nothing
>less.

The WRCar era has consistently produced the closest competition in the history of the championship. This is good for TV and live/semi-live coverage. The risk with significantly changing the formula is that you will lose this. It wasn't that long ago that winning margins were frequently in the tens of minutes.

>Tell me where you or I can get our hands on cars with
>current technology? Not that I would want one because it
>goes back to cost.

That isn't the point of the WRC. It is a marketing exercise, just like F1, NASCAR, ALMS/Le Mans...

Adrian
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Spec gear boxes and differentials shouldn't dissuade too many manufacturers. Most of the manufacturers bring in outside enginnering assistance on those components anyway.

If a manufacturer could still devellop their shell, motor, aero, and suspension and just had to make due with a spec drive train from the motor back where is the dissincentive fomr them to participate. The marketing aspect remains as there can still be a lot of marketing value in the power plant and shell.


As for the drivers they can move as much or little as they want, as they can right now....
 

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I agree, that with the same transmission and rear diff. the cost should be reduced and more manufacturers would be able to run their cars. Plus the trans could be engineered to only take so much power and so much torque therefore limtiting how much the motors were developed (ie. If the trans. can only take say 300Hp and 400lbs/ft torque then why bother trying for more). Handeling and reliability would become the most important aspects of engineering.
 

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>The WRCar era has consistently produced the closest
>competition in the history of the championship. This is good
>for TV and live/semi-live coverage. The risk with
>significantly changing the formula is that you will lose
>this. It wasn't that long ago that winning marins were
>frequently in the tens of minutes.

Yawn....

WRC is just a bunch of over-priced grocery-getting mommy-mobile sedans that are used to sell commercials.

Give me the East African Safari, the POR, Paris/Dakar, etc... ya remember what that is called..... RALLY.

WRC isn't rallying. It is forest sprint racing brought to an obscene level that video game players think is rallying.

Boring.
 

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>>The WRCar era has consistently produced the closest
>>competition in the history of the championship. This is good
>>for TV and live/semi-live coverage. The risk with
>>significantly changing the formula is that you will lose
>>this. It wasn't that long ago that winning margins were
>>frequently in the tens of minutes.
>
>Yawn....
>
>WRC is just a bunch of over-priced grocery-getting
>mommy-mobile sedans that are used to sell commercials.
>
>Give me the East African Safari, the POR, Paris/Dakar,
>etc... ya remember what that is called..... RALLY.

Hmm, Peugeot 504s, Ford Escorts, Fiat 131s, Opel Asconas, Datsun 510s - none of them were grocery-getting sedans, were they?

>WRC isn't rallying. It is forest sprint racing brought to
>an obscene level that video game players think is rallying.

>Boring.

No, just different.

Adrian
 

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>Hmm, Peugeot 504s, Ford Escorts, Fiat 131s, Opel Asconas,
>Datsun 510s - none of them were grocery-getting sedans, were
>they?


Back in the good days of rallying many were grocery-getters, but also included were: Lancia Stratos, Porsche 911, a few Ferraris (on asphalt rallies), various American pony cars, Alpine Renault (couple of versions), Datsun 240Z, and many others.

Now, they are exclusively over-dosed testosterone mommy-mobile grocery-getting billboards running short stages in only in day light. Soon they probably will join NASCAR and not run in the rain.

No thanks.

I think WRC is boring.
 

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>Now, they are exclusively over-dosed testosterone
>mommy-mobile grocery-getting billboards running short stages
>in only in day light. Soon they probably will join NASCAR
>and not run in the rain.

I used a Lotus Europa as my grocery-getting, take-the-kids-to-school, haul-the-recycling-to-the-transfer-station car for years. Don't knock grocery-getters.

The Peugeot is based on the 307 convertible. The Xsara looks like a sport coupe to me. Mommies drive minivans, not hatchback, so the Focus and the Skoda aren't mommy-mobiles either.

Corsica had two 20+ mile tarmac stages run twice on Saturday. Oh, I know that it isn't as tough as "back in the day" when men were men and kids had to walk ten miles to school, in snow, uphill both ways, but the limits on modern cars are higher than they used to be and I am sure the drivers at Corsica got a good workout anyway.

>No thanks.
>
>I think WRC is boring.

That's your opinion. It isn't universal. It might not even be the majority opinion (haven't conducted or seen any opinion polls).

I don't think it is boring. That's my opinion.

However, I want to see the return of 2500/5000 car homologations for the selfish reason that I want to see international-level rally cars that I can buy.

alan
 

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>more manufacturers would be able
>to run their cars.

Not to sound like a di#k but I don't think that these, or any other, changes are going to bring a flood of other companies to rally. Other than Subaru - none of even the current companies use their rally efforts to market and sell their cars - we are just to fringe of a sport - something about making the spectators stand in the woods or something?!

Just my 2 cents
 

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>>more manufacturers would be able
>>to run their cars.
>
>Not to sound like a di#k but I don't think that these, or
>any other, changes are going to bring a flood of other
>companies to rally. Other than Subaru - none of even the
>current companies use their rally efforts to market and sell
>their cars - we are just to fringe of a sport - something
>about making the spectators stand in the woods or
>something?!

Huh? Half of the WRC mfgs don't even sell cars in North America, so how would you know if they use rally in their marketing or not? I bet you will see a lot of Citroen rally-based marketing in France soon.

alan
 

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I'm sorry but with the attitudes I'm seeing here, it's no wonder why the SCCA chose to cut Stage Rally in the US.

Is APPEARS that many of you all hate it anyway.

I agree, cap the spending or run into Formula 1 issues. But wait, F1 is FIA as well... so THAT'S the problem. It's Bernie!!! It's HIS fault.

If I see one more post saying the ONLY Rally is Carb'd 2 wheel drive cars, I'm going to start the RAtkins Diet and purge Carbs from Rally Consumables!!!

You folks are talking about ROAD RALLY and there IS a division for that, back at the 'ol SCCA. Go there and ENJOY yourselves. If that's not good enough, join a Road Course Race (also available at your local SCCA clearing house), or join IMSA and the ALMS for some LOOOONG running Road Racing.

But I'm guessing that none of these will work out either because of "technology" and "expense" and "big teams" and "corporate sponsors".

Contentment is being happy with what you have, while working for what you want. Experience is what you get, when you don't get what you want.

In the words of Sting... Relax

Scott "DKOV" Kovalik
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I guess Cit and Pug battle it out and spend tons of money just for shats and giggles?


There is a reason they focus more on the manufacturers titles now then the drivers titles. They want to have the best, most reliable, and higherst performing cars so they can market their cars as superior. They do market their cars using their rally program, and they do make a huge effort to capitalize on their investment.


Probably a bigger effort then any other team.


There is a world that exists outside of North America.
 

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>I used a Lotus Europa as my grocery-getting,
>take-the-kids-to-school,
>haul-the-recycling-to-the-transfer-station car for years.
>Don't knock grocery-getters.


I drove a few Europas over the years. Don't get me wrong... I loved them. They stuck like crazy, and were a blast. At one time I was looking looking for a new car. On my list were: Pantera, Europa, 911, and Ferrari 246. So I went a drove them all at their respective dealers. The Europa had more body creeks than a 90 year old hooker.

The Europa fit like a snug thin leather glove, and gave about the same amount of protection in a collision. The only redeeming safety characteristic of the body was: if you were hit the entire fiberglass body would explode. They wouldn't need the "jaws of life" to get you out of the body, because there wouldn't be any body left.

"kids"? How did you fit more than one kid in the car? For that matter... how did you find room for groceries?
 

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The storage capacity of a Europa

>The Europa fit like a snug thin leather glove, and gave
>about the same amount of protection in a collision. The
>only redeeming safety characteristic of the body was: if you
>were hit the entire fiberglass body would explode. They
>wouldn't need the "jaws of life" to get you out of the body,
>because there wouldn't be any body left.

Sorta. It does have the benefit of coming apart and dissipating (sp?) energy like a race car. I have seen a couple photos of Europa accidents where the whole front end of the car was gone, but the driver walked away.

The car that I replaced the Europa with, a German-market original Elise, is much safer and just as light.

>"kids"? How did you fit more than one kid in the car? For
>that matter... how did you find room for groceries?

Well, "kids" was a mis-type. On short trips, I have put two kids in one seat belt. I had a friend with a 914 who rigged up child seating on the wide console and I could see doing the same thing with the Europa. However, while I owned the Europa, I only had one kid, so that wasn't an issue.

Room for groceries? The passenger seat is an obvious place. Also the front compartment. Generally, not in the parcel tray in the engine bay unless you wanted to melt the frozen stuff and have everything taste like motor oil. However, I hauled a lot of cardboard in the back to recycling.

I once took my daughter camping in the Europa. We got two sleeping bags, a tent, two pads, two igloo coolers, two backpacks and the two of us into the car. Plus, I had to drive the car over roads suitable for rally to get to the campsite.

When I moved from the Bay Area to Seattle, I brought everything that I would need until the movers arrived in the Europa. However, it was a nice, July afternoon in the central valley (combined with the heat of the engine) and the can of fix-a-flat in the parcel tray exploded and the goop in the can went through the plastic bag it was in, through the bottom of my suitcase and soaked through three layers of clothes in the bag.

If you commute in a Lotus, you have plenty of stories like that!

alan
 
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