[derek]

There has been an interesting discussion in the Canadian Forum on weather the arrival of more experienced Brits is good for the sport or unfair to the local drivers.

http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID4/119.html

I think we can all agree that we would like to have fair competition but it is harder to get agreement on what that looks like. Some people look to the spend to win type programs and call those unfair, others see the inconsistent application of rules and see unfairness. Finally some see the arrival of real professional drivers and see that as unfair to the privateers who need to work during the week to pay for the rally car rather than get paid to tune and test during the week like a pro.

What I see is opportunity; to mold rallying to our needs, to have strong leadership emerge, and to have the powers that be regain the respect and trust of the membership at large. So come-on PRB and PRD (how about PRx's for short) how about putting out some real vision on these issues before the end of the year. I will even make it easy and write a set of solutions below - feel free to copy.

Level playing field - right now it is far too easy to spend ones way to performance in any of the classes. We need a one make class or a few one make classes. Lets set some goals in this area and get going on it.

Rules - We can all see the rule book needs some attention and the procedures need help too. So get going, clean up some of the messes like is it legal or not to remove the radio in a Production car? Then apply all the rules in an open and transparent manner under written procedures. When something does not work - fix it and publish the fix. If someone is speeding in service but it can not be proven as there was no measure of speed, then say oh well we screwed up this time but next time here is what we are going to do to prevent speeding in service.

Pro vs Amateur - I have been though this many times personally. For some reason in sailing I got classed as a pro. This limited my ability to just go out and have fun doing a little race from time to time with friends since sailing has all kinds of regattas and classes that do not allow pros. See the weekend warriors like to be able to win and collect hardware from time to time.

I think there is a good comprise here, we can have classes that do not have pro's and classes that let everyone compete, both at every event. I suggest that Production and Production GT could be armature classes and the rest of the classes be open to whom ever wishes to show up. The PRx will need to come up with some sort of system to fugue out who is pro and who is not. This will become an area of many loopholes and much creative reading of rules but none the less it should not be that hard to do. The main point is everyone should get to participate.

Ok everyone run with it. My feelings are not going to get hurt - I know full well the forum can be a snake pit sometimes, so write your true feelings out.

Derek

 

[randyzimmer]

I'd hate to have every person competing in his own class.
Examples of this are the huge number of solo classes and 2002 PGT. Sure you get to go to work Monday and say you won, but deep inside, who'd you beat?
Road racing has been trying to drop classes for years but the people in them resist mightily, so watch out, they are hard to drop once started.
---
Going against what I wrote above...
"We need a one make class or a few one make classes."
I'm all for this, spec ford, spec RX7, spec Miata and what may have been the original, GTP (pinto) have all brought out huge fields in amature racing. Pro classes like the Canadian Honda and Camaro series and the SCCA's Rabbit/Bistein, Alliance, Neon series disappear when the money's gone so you take a chance when purses and manufacturer involvement get added in but it can be a great thing while it lasts.
rz

 

[Racer5]

In my VERY humble opinion,

Money will always matter. Even in spec classes, money matters... BUT, money(from sponsors) would be much easier to get with a spec class. Especially after a newbie has had a few good finishes in his or her piece o chit P/PGT car.

I say keep what we have, but get a big name manufacturer on board.

Could a spec class be done without a manufacturer? How about a spec MK1 MR2 class???}>
Charles
MR2 #295

 

[dch]

I think a spec class would be a great idea. So, why don't you put one together? Why would you have to wait for someone else to do it for you if it's so important to you?

Get 6 or so teams together, build similar cars to a common standard, set whatever limits you want, agree to which events to run, and do it. Track your times, throw money into a pot for awards and beer at the end of the season, and make it something people want to do. What does it matter if the SCCA says you're all Group 2 when you're running a sub-group of MR2's against eachother? Do it all at ClubRally events if you really want it to be cost effective.

In other words, less telling other people to do things for you, more doing them yourselves. There's nothing stopping you.

-Doug

 

[WSRC Chairman]

An Excellent Idea

Indeed, Doug makes a most excellent suggestion. That's exactly what all the western organizers did--they created the Western States Rally Championship series. True, in our case we're not adding classes, but we are building an overlay series to give our western competitors what they've been asking for. You can do it too if you set your mind to it.

BTW: Check out the WSRC discussion board to see the announcement that we've added Historics to our mix of recognized classes.

[hr]

[p align=right]John Dillon
e-mail: chairman @ wsrally.org
Web: http://www.wsrally.org

 

[derek]

spec class

I am writing the frame work for 2 spec classes, one Gp5 and one Gp2. I think GpN works fine for AWD there are only 2 types of cars in that class any ways.

I took the opportunity of other discussions to get some idea's out early - before I finished the hard part.

I built a one design fleet of J-22 sailboats in Seattle so I have a few years experience with the challenges of this type of class. The biggest challenge is getting a reasonable number of people to agree on a spec, we are all wizards with a better idea of what would be a good spec/car than the next guy. This is where strong leadership is nessasary.

We already have a Production Class - the Geo Metro - but when I publish my full article I will point out two errors in the creation of that class, but that is not here nor there now it exist and some cars have been built thus should not be abandoned. We can however learn from that class.

Randy wisely points out getting outside funding can be a pitfall and Charles notes $$'s talk - but again I have some experience at how to make thats less an issue. I have the least prepared J-22 in Seattle but still managed 2 years winning every regatta and have never finished worse than 2nd since then.

I will be getting my full ideas out to Ben sometime next week.

Till then-

Derek Bottles

 

[dch]

RE: spec class

Looks like we've found our sucker... Er, leader!

-Doug

 

[spoier]

Sounds like a great idea Derek, I look forward to your proposal.

I think there may be enough XR's on the road next year for an informal Gp5 spec class

Skye Poier
Seattle, WA

--
Team Irrational Racing
Coming soon to a forest near you!
http://www.irrationalracing.com/

 

[Bruce]

I think a spec class could be a great idea, but don't forget, you have to have a system to insure conformity with the spec unless one place builds all the cars. Event tech inspectors are pretty busy as it is, and something like this would create a greater burden if you need them to do it.

Doesn't have to be rocket science...a single tech inspector for the series...a protest system..."open hood" parc exposes...any number of things could be used.

Bruce

 

[Trevor Donison]

>I think a spec class could be a great idea, but don't
>forget, you have to have a system to insure conformity with
>the spec unless one place builds all the cars. Event tech
>inspectors are pretty busy as it is, and something like this
>would create a greater burden if you need them to do it.
>
>Doesn't have to be rocket science...a single tech inspector
>for the series...a protest system..."open hood" parc
>exposes...any number of things could be used.
>
>Bruce


We already have enough classes. A competitive 2wd Production car can be built for under $10,000. I could easily do that with a Neon if I wanted.

Cost of running far exceeds the cost of a car no matter what class you develope. Minimum cost to run 9 National events would be at least $27,000 by the time you make several round trips across the country. And that doesn't count the number of vacation days from work needed to do it. Probably at least 3 days off average x 9 events, 27 days minimum.

Want to even the playing field? GO BACK TO BLIND RALLY'S. That is the single biggest thing that has been done that gives an advantage to the European competitors. Bring on the note sniffing dogs.

 

[derek]

>We already have enough classes.

That is one reason the one make cars would be built to be competive in classes that exist today.

Personaly I do not think there is anything wrong with a large number of classes if there is a large number of cars running in each class. In my other sport a class is not scored or reconized unless a minimum number of entries starts.

That could be interesting. If only 3 Gp2 cars show up at National rally XYZ then they get tossed in with Gp5 and there are no season points for Gp2 awarded at that rally. Wow, I do not know if that is a good idea or a bad one for the established classes. On the otherhand I will be proposing one make classes work this way. For championship points I would require at least 8 cars to start before class points are awarded at any event.

 

[randyzimmer]

lotza classes

"Personaly I do not think there is anything wrong with a large number of classes if there is a large number of cars running in each class. In my other sport a class is not scored or reconized unless a minimum number of entries starts."
---
Not to forget that there's a limit to how many entries a rally can accomodate. Road permission and workers limit entries, this isn't an autocross. If every existing class had 8 entries, most rallys would be oversubscribed. And no one is happy when they get bumped week after week.
But... If you get 15 Metros, I'm sure the organizer will let you award a trophy at the party for the best finishing Metro.
rz

 

[DaveHintz]

ideas

It's good the Brits are here, but rules must apply to them.

Same size dust window for everyone would be fair.

Letting everyone keep their season points would be fair.

The new start order system looks pretty good.

A weight minimum for "Pro" G5 would be a good idea (2600 lbs).

A weight minimum for "Pro" G2 cars over 1600cc would be good. I'm not sure what the limit should be (ask Scott Fuller).

 

[rlima]

RE: ideas

To all on this post,

I have been reading this forum for a couple of years and this is the first time I have felt compelled to say something especially in this post.

For a long time people have complained about rallying in the US not having its proper recognition compared to other parts of the world.
There has been hard work done in the past 2 years and certain peoplee (e.g. "the Brits") have come and knocked on the US "rally door" to come and play.

The US rally community has wanted to be recognized, well ... here is the first group to come as you wanted.
Every group has to go through its growing pains and now it's the US Rally Scene's turn.

I just hate to sit here and read all these complaints about who did what, when and under whose rules. Look people ... there isn't enough cheese to go around with all your whines, so if you don't like something run for a local or national board and change it.

That is all. Have a nice day.

R. Lima

 

[Kartwheel]

RE: ideas

>I just hate to sit here and read all these complaints about
>who did what, when and under whose rules.

So dont read them.

>Look people ...
>there isn't enough cheese to go around with all your whines,
>so if you don't like something run for a local or national
>board and change it.

It really has nothing to do with this thread, but to address your point, you CANT run for a local or national board and change anything, NOT EVEN THE "PRO" RALLY BOARD, because the "Pro" Rally Director (Dictator) has total say in what is done.