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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Sorry about the cross-post folks.
So peoples......While SCCA lets us wither on the vine, I intend to have a back up plan so that we do not burn bridges with our landowners.
So everyone........Where do we find event insurance?
Ray Hocker? Anyone else?
We have a lot of years of efforts and a lot of people counting on our rallying.
I want to go and have fun in the woods too.
SCCA does not seem to be helping. X(

John Lane
Viva Le Pro Le Ralliat
 

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Ask the off-road community

Don't have any definite answers for ya, but might check to see who other groups use. Check with Score, Larana, USAC, etc. Matt, you know a lot of off-road road folks--maybe they can give you some leads. Check too with your local roundy-rounders.

Not that I'm suggesting a change in sanctioning body or anything for your event... ;-)

Besides, SCCA keeps telling me that no one else wants to insure rallies.

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[p align=right]John Dillon
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I suggest we not create a huge ripple in the insurance industry by making them think we've got the biggest risk out there. We need to take a thoughtful approach to this dilemma.

Donna and I are working to put together insurance for the Gorman Ridge Rally to hold the event as scheduled in August. At this time, we don't think there will be any problem doing so. What we don't need is to have a bunch of people with no serious interest or need for event insurance bombarding the companies for useless quotes. We will keep you up to date on our progress and we are willing to share our experience with serious organizers. Hopefully, the club rally situation will resolve itself in time for us to hold the rally as a club rally as we've planned.

Let's all take a step back and look at the world. There are off-road, boat, jet ski, airplane, and motorcycle races everyday that run on public lands and property. These event have had no history of insurance problems although each of these sports have suffered serious accidents in the past. Rally is, by comparison, extremely safe sport .

The SCCA is a large organization and has been able to use this size to help keep the costs of insurance for rallies down. I think what we are going through now is an adjustment period and we will no doubt see the costs increase. I am confident that the SCCA will see that it is in their best interest to resolve this quickly and things will return to normal.

Ray Hocker
 

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RE: Ask the off-road community

I have sent an e-mail to my contact to get insurance information and will provide it to serious interested organizers as well.

I would probably recomend working with Ray on this as he (and his insurance carrier) have experience with these issues.

I also think letting the SCCA work this out is a good idea, but having a backup plan is just the smart thing to do.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for your response Ray.
Please E-Mail me off list at [email protected]
Forgive the Northwest riegon for not having a lot of faith in SCCA.
I can assure you that my comments as posted here about SCCA are but the tip of the iceberg as to how we here in the Friendly Riegon are feeling just about now.
I am working quite seriously and in a bit of a time crunch so that we may hold our events scheduled for June 7 and 8.
Thanks in advance for your efforts.

John Lane
Viva Le Pro Le Ralliat
 

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K & K Insurance group used to the biggest player in the motorsports event insurance field. Not sure if they still are, but it is a good place to start. [a href="http://www.kandkinsurance.com/"]http://www.kandkinsurance.com/[/a]
 

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I may not be a rally competitor but perhaps I can offer some help here. I used to race at Waterford Hills, a small track in the northern suburbs of Detroit. They have been running their own show for 50 years, no SCCA sanctioning. I contacted them to find out who they use for insurance. Here is the contact:

NARI Agency, LLC. It is a family-owned deal - contact George or Gib England 1-800-950-6274.

Apparently they are also investigating other companies, I'll try and get some more contacts for you.

Adrian
 

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Uh, it's my understanding that Wisenberg is the company currently providing SCCA's insurance and that Pete is the sales agent for Wisenberg.

In addition to [email protected], you can also reach Pete at [email protected].

Officially his SCCA title is Manager, Corporate Services, listed under Risk Management on http://www.scca.com/interactive/natstaff.html. My understanding is that it's Pete who buys insurance on behalf of the SCCA.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

John


>here's another one.
>
>Wisenberg
>Pete Lyon
>[email protected]
>ph 713-507-4718
>fax 713-507-9418
>
>Adrian


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[p align=right]John Dillon
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Well.......

One hand washing the other might be a very good thing.

Particularly if the FIRST hand was interested in washing a THIRD hand at a NON-SCCA organization. There is no conflict with SCCA's concerns when doing separate business with a different client.

Rich Smith

Vive le "Pro-le-Ralliat"
 

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>Uh, it's my understanding that Wisenberg is the company
>currently providing SCCA's insurance and that Pete is the
>sales agent for Wisenberg.

That's sure what it looks like. Anywhere else in the world this is called a "conflict of interest."

Is it in the best interests of the SCCA to continue with a club rally program, or in the best interest of Wisenberg to cancel the insurance?

Or one better, in light of the increases in event insurance costs: Please provide us with quotes obtained from competing insurers for the various SCCA competition programs.

Wilson
 

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This, IMHO does smack of "conflict of interest". Maybe now we're getting closer to the real truth. It will be very interesting to see the end result, but I'm not holding my breath on this one!
 

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The biggest problem I see with the SCCA is that the standards of organization and conduct of the national office "professional" staff appears to be at the level of a mid-sized business stuck in the 1970s.

I'm sure we don't have the whole story, but as it stands now, Pete's position doesn't inspire a lot of confidence. The two conflicting, paying positions Pete holds in his insurance company and the SCCA violate important clauses in all the corporate employment agreements I've ever had to sign. Could the SCCA's standards of business conduct really be so low?

From looking at Wisenberg's website, it may be possible that Pete is legitimately attached to the SCCA as some kind of a consultant as part of a package of services. If so, I would humbly point out that it is standard industry practice to keep key decisionmaking functions in house, and not farm out control over fundamental business units to consultants. Violating this rule leaves a business open to mismanagment and exploitation by external personnel that start out not caring much and later move on to outright pillage.

Risk management is a fundamental business of the SCCA. Purchasing management from the same folks whose services form our largest expense is looking for trouble in exactly the same way that trouble came to Enron in the form of Arthur Anderson.

Pete Lyon has chosen this crisis to jump up and down about rally safety. However, because he actually works for the insurance company that holds our policy, it seems unrealistic to me that he could have the time or motivation to proactively address the needs of the club. In the half-dozen years I've been an organizer groupie, I haven't seen or heard any credible, systematic, "professional" action from Denver/Topeka regarding safety. While the national office has occasionally expressed concern, there's been no comprehensive action.

The sad part is that while I think the Sawmill tragedy was "just one of those things" that maybe didn't have to happen but also didn't have a direct cause, the poor standard of action by the national office over the years would not look good in a court case. Our "risk management" has actually left us open to more risk. Success in risk managment is more important than just occasional expressions of concern.

My contention is that as the representative of Wisenberg rather than the club, Pete is directly interested in writing policies for tightly controlled venues and events (roadracing) while reducing Wisenberg's exposure to the unknowns in rally. As far as his role in the club goes, maintaining and improving the safety of rally activities would be, at best, of indirect interest to him that might not compete with a simpler desire to just get rid of rally. This could be what has led to the cranky, unhelpful disdain we've become used to over the years and "shut it down, NOW!" response to the current crisis.

I will say it again: success in risk management is more important than just identifying things to "be worried about." There are actual professionals that have experience in creating industrial risk management programs. We can find them in the military, aerospace, manufacturing, etc. Many of these folks are interested in racing. I suggest the membership study what makes a good risk management program, then present that information to the Board and lean on them to implement it, replacing or adding national staff if necessary.

If Pete Lyon wants to continue his association with the SCCA, he could take a big step in making us happy by clearing up his apparent conflict of interest and cutting his ties to our insurers. That may not be enough, however. If he really does come from a sales background, as a club we need to consider replacing him with someone that has enough practical experience in safety and risk managment.

andy
 

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Andy, everything you're saying is accurate, but your conclusion is flawed. The President and BoD are all aware of Mr Lyon's conflict of interest. If you want any kind of professional organization, including risk management and organizational standards that improve overall safey then you're going to have to give up on the SCCA.

Mr. Lyon is a businessman, he'll be happy to sell insurance to organizers outside of the SCCA umbrella. Sure it will cost a little more, but the guy works part-time for a non-profit, he's entitled to make a little money on the side, isn't he?

Jim Culp
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I'm not convinced that this is a case of "conflict of interest". So he's a member, does something in the organization, and also works for the insurance company that insures SCCA events.

If ORG had stayed independent, and grew to the size of SCCA, I suppose y'all would be having a problem with my Dad, the CPA, doing taxes for the organization he's a member of?

Seems to me that Pete likes the SCCA, was glad to be able to provide them with this service, and was happy to take on further responsibilities with the club he's part of.

How long has he been providing insurance for events? How long has he been part of the "inner circle"?

C'mon, guys, let's not get carried away with conspiracy theories.

KT
 

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Hi Kristen! <waves>

If the Oregon Rally Group was an investing club buying audit services exclusively from Tabor Accounting, it would indeed be sketchy for Bruce to be our financial officer. Instead, we race cars, Simon Levear is our treasurer and your dad's face gets that "don't friggin' talk me about accounting, I'm trying to have fun" look when I see him at events.

I'm not saying that Pete Lyon is actively trying to cheat us, but you have to admit that from the point of view of Wisenberg he's in a pretty sweet position. Given the amount of power and specific control he has over ALL our operations, our Risk Manager should be independent from the folks that take most of our money.

Smart management avoids these situations. The SCCA needs to update its standards.

andy
 
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