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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
To further Pat's comments, it is clear that one doesn't even need to have seen the FasTrack announcement. The seeds of this autonomy have been planted over a year ago.

PAGE 1 of the 2002 ProRally Rulebook:

"The purpose of the ProRally Championship series is to encourage the participation in and support of, on a national basis, Performance Rally offering a driving challenge."

PAGE 3 of the 2002 ProRally Rulebook:

1. "PRB to agree on the concept for rules revisions, and post in FasTrack for member input."

2. "PRB will examine all member input and, if applicable, forward the change to the Rules Committee for specific wording."

***PAGE 2 of the 2002 ProRally Rulebook:***

"The PRD shall have complete and final authority on the ProRally/ClubRally Rules; their implementation, and standards of conduct before, during, and after an event in the ProRally (National) and ClubRally (formerly known as divisional) series."


If I may be so bold as to paraphrase, what the PRB/PRD (I will call them the Powers That Be or "PTB") are saying is this:

"Go ahead and waste as much time submitting your suggestions, comments, opinions, and protestations! We will be happy to receive them and put them through our corporate paper shuffling process! However, be warned, that in the end, the PTB can and will do whatever we want!!!"

You have been warned, on page 2 of the rule book. Any argument put forth can be rebutted by this one sentence, with one simple sentence, the PRD becomes King. Think of any poor decision made this year, and there were a few, and it is covered by this "PEC" (ProRally Escape Clause).

As far as Page 1 of the ProRally rulebook?

In my case, I don't feel encouraged at all. In fact, quite the opposite. If there has been any failure at all, the PTB have failed us in Article 1: 1.1.A The PURPOSE of PRORALLY


Respectfully,
Andrew Havas
http://www.andrewhavas.com
 

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Well...I'm sure you also know that the President of the United States is provided with the same powers. He doesn't have to have Congressional approval to do stuff, but he pretty much always does.

Why? Because sometimes bad stuff happens that requires an immediate response or worse, a response that, while for the common good, is not appealing to most people.

Not saying that I agree with the PRD having these powers (I believe in checks and balances) but it's not unprecedented.
 

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>
>Why? Because sometimes bad stuff happens that requires an
>immediate response or worse, a response that, while for the
>common good, is not appealing to most people.

The management of the club also has to be able to head off things that would be detrimental to the club as a whole...like if the PRB voted to eliminate the requirement for roll cages. You'll find a similar sentence in all the SCCA rulebooks...it's rather equivalent to the President's veto power - part of checks and balances, but it can be misused.

Bruce
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
You are correct Daphne, but the processes in the United States government don't change on a whim as sometimes seems to be the case with the ProRally PTB department.

...and there is also that little thing about a Presidential *Election* that makes a comparison questionable. If our PRD is to be named by the SCCA, then I believe that we, the membership, have a right to more than the ability to simply comment on the decision making process, which is in effect, all the power we have.

Andrew
 

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while it is completely acceptable for the President of the most powerfull country in the world to have those powers, I find it completely unnacceptable for the people involved with making rules and issuing penalties for a simple sport, where time is not life and death critical, to not do what their membership wants them to do, being that this is a club suposedly run by the members for the members. Now, the next complaint is that the membership needs to voice their opinions TO the PTB/PRD/PRB and not just here on special stage.
 

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with propper checks and ballances that wouldn't happen. The PRB would decide that cages weren't needed, then post it in fastrack, and the membership would shoot it down before it became a rule. Much like the 20 year rule.. oh wait... that one passed... must have been what the membership wanted...
 

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I wasn't saying anyhting in my post to discourage or discredit anything, just pointing out the new wording in fastrack vis a vis a query for open PRB positions. I dont want to be part of a lynch mob. That being said, just to point out some more changes, one year ago, one could have said that the non-existant position of PRD meant that the PRB was responsible.
 

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I thought we all understood that when the PRD postion was created it was to remove the flack attacks from the now PRD and to try and point the finger at the PRB. However comments made by various PRB members made it clear that although the PRB try to do a job-that in reality the PRD runs the show, sets the rules, generally creates problems, and has a secret agenda.
I do believe in the PRB-very nice folks.
Now it would seem with the advent of rally America that a third wall of diversion is being thrown up to try and insulate the PRD from further flack attacks!
Could it be that we don't need a rule book longer then 1 page, as the rules listed above negate the rest of the book.
Wouldn't a coin toss for an event winner provides us with an equivalent result? At least we would understand how the result was achieved and administered.:7
 

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The real reason this comparison doesn't work is the election. The presedent of the USA is selected by a public election. If he makes decisions the public doesn't like, he doesn't get re-elected. If he really screws up, he gets impeached.

The SCCA rally comunity has no such powers. The members of the PRB are not elected, they don't have limited terms, and they can't be removed from office. In short, there are no checks or balances at all.

I don't mean that as an attack against anyone in particular, it's just an observation about the way things are.


John B.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Exactly my point.

Further, I am not attacking anyone, nor was I instigating any kind of a lynch mob, just merely reiterating what is in the rulebook in black and white.

If I have one criticism, it is that the spirit of ProRally, as defined on Page One of the rulebook, doesn't seem to be there.

I want to see the sport grow as much or possibly more than anyone. However, because of the delicate state of rallyings' popularity in North America (as witnessed by the Speed Channel's efforts to reduce WRC coverage), it seems to me that we all need to work together to secure long term success, not simply short-term commercial success. If Speed is questioning the viability of airing the WRC Championship (which thanks to D. Richards and millions of pounds has reached an incredible level), I put forth the question:

If the popularity of WRC fails in the US, does the SCCA ProRally National Championship have a prayer???

Andrew
 

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I think the real key is Rally America

Depending on which rumors you choose to believe, it seems the PRD will have very little power to unilaterally make or change rules in the future. If, in fact, many of the dictatorial powers previously appropriated/siezed/exercised by the PRD are now up for grabs, the critical relationship will be between Rally America and the PRB.

Will Rally America try to influence rule creation? If so, will they do it with a scalpel or with the the dull axe that we've seen in the past?

As Rally America gets it's business plan together, now would be a great opportunity for Doug and the crew to pledge that they will NOT interfere with PRB rule-making.

Now is the time to put SOLE rule-making authority where it belongs--in the knowledgable and reasonably representative (if not actually elected) hands of the PRB! Does anyone disagree with that?
 

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RE: I think the real key is Rally America

Until:


(From: ) ***PAGE 2 of the 2002 ProRally Rulebook**

"The PRD shall have complete and final authority on the ProRally/ClubRally Rules; their implementation, and standards of conduct before, during, and after an event in the ProRally (National) and ClubRally (formerly known as divisional) series."

is removed for the rule book, the PRB has no real authority, as I read the rule book.

The process for the BOD to approve final rules is already in place (as I understand it) so WE have no need for the PRD checks and balances in the approval and rules making process.

In addition, while I respect the current members of the PRB, if WE want them to have final authority on the rules they should be Elected. Or at least the Leader (or 3) should be elected. There could be a good process of electing 3 members and allowing them to select an additional amount of members (it is a club we should vote on the leadership, but it is a club we should allow the leaders to work with people they'll respect and enjoy working with).

I have nothing against the current process of picking PRB members, only because it seems effective, however we don't live in Cuba or Iraq so an election process seems the best way to ensure the membership maintains a voice in our rules and processes.

I would not vote any of the current PRB membership out of office.

In fact normal terms might not even be needed, just something in place for the membership to be able to have a voice.

(Rant: )I think we all realize we have no voice, no one in the structure of our rally leadership is obligated to consider what we want until you get to the BOD members and they seem very detached from the day to day interestes of the rally membership so in all reality they are not a very effective group for influencing change.

There are lots of good ways to merge the current process with one that gives the general membership more of a voice. I'll have to give the details more thought. (But I am not sure there is any way to make this happen if the PRB, PRD, or BOD does not see this as important -- why would they, they have all the power...)

things to ponder,
Mike
 

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RE: I think the real key is Rally America

I don't know about a pledge, but how about a pearl of wisdom. We intend to express the opinions of the groups we work with (organizers mainly, eventually manufacturers and competitors too) to the PRB with regard to rules. The body that actually manages the rules (SCCA), is the body that gets all the liability that goes along with making the rules. We will not be undertaking any of the insurance, loss prevention or rule creation aspects of ProRally.

Uh, nor do we exist to divert flak from any portion of the SCCA just for the record. :)

Cheers,
-Doug
 
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