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CR>R5 into L3- 100 Finish
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The Ford youngster might not be driving for Ford the coming season.
Wilson announced that the plans to compete for 2005 are still not set and releases Duval after this season.

This is something I can't understand that, yes still young, but very good driver is let go. I truly believe he will perform better than M. Martin.

Whiplash RallyeSport
 

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I agree. He seems to pace himself when told to FINISH and his results are impressive and showing improvement.
 

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Guys, it is a contract thing..

It doesnt look like ford will compete full time next year, and Duvals contract called for the oppurtunity to look and sign with other teams if there was any uncertainty about the teams future commitment come late august.. I believe also, the longer ford waited to commit, the higher the fee's paid to Duval became..

Ford probably wont be around next year... At least not as a factory team (ala Skoda) just privateers driving focii.. Like Matt Wilson..

Oooh look at this!

http://www.f1racing.net/en/news.php?newsID=61703
 

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If Ford drops out
First, shows the troubling trend of reshaping the face of rally into a meaningless, forgetful sprint continues to take a toll.


Second,
what's this how you say 'F1' ?


Soon WRC will be down to 2 teams, FIA must be proud.


John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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eating dust taking photos
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Ford did almost the same thing last year. Honestly I think Ford is bitter over the decision to sell the Focus RS at such a loss and that they don't believe that WRC is boosting focus sales enough.


Its probably going to be blamed on something stupid like that. Maybe Ford should figure out that the focus is boring in the US and that nobody wants to pay the money for it when they have other more attractive or better performing options available in the market.


Ford just keeps on proving they don't understand anything thats not NASCAR or drag....
 

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CR>R5 into L3- 100 Finish
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
>Honestly I think Ford is bitter over the decision to sell the Focus RS at such a loss...
>
>
>Maybe Ford should figure out that the focus is boring
>in the US and that nobody wants to pay the money...
>
>
>Ford just keeps on proving they don't understand anything
>thats not NASCAR or drag....

I'm not sure where you get your info, but Ford is one of the first MFG's to compete in rallye.
Also, Ford is very much involved in promoting rallye in the US.
To any MFG's defence, the FIA is not making it easy or cheap to compete. Constant rule changes and demands on teams are not making the sport attractive.

Whiplash RallyeSport
 

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eating dust taking photos
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My information is based off of the fact that rally is of increasing costs and its main promotional useage isn't having much returns.

Lancia was around for a long time, so was Opel, Aston, Healy, Mini, the list goes on.


When rally gets to expensive to justify the expense based on returns manufacturers go looking for other options...


Ford isn't seeing the returns per dollar they used to.


As for bad Focus sales, the father of a friend of mine owns a couple large Ford dealerships. Moving Focci has been so hard to free up space and move them he was giving them away with 2004 F-150s as long as the F-150 went at sticker. Even giving them away he only moved about 90 in 4 dealerships......
This isn't how it is everywhere but from hearing him talk its a pretty common problem in a lot of the US....
 

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Duval is getting very good and showing ability to be a champion.

Ford should pull out, current WRC cars have no trickle down to consumers and most rally fans are smart enough to realize this. Nothing on a WRC car is the same as the car sold to the public-whats the point of rally? To prove the standard product that is sold!

What I'm getting at is there are no parts to buy for the Focus to rally that are well proven, not like in the group 1-4 days escorts. For rally to be a success to the consumer which in turn is a success to the manufacturer the cars have to be based on stock production vehicles made in large numbers with plenty of easily and inexspensive available homolagated parts.
 

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>
> Duval is getting very good and showing ability to be a
>champion.
>
> Ford should pull out, current WRC cars have no trickle
>down to consumers and most rally fans are smart enough to
>realize this. Nothing on a WRC car is the same as the car
>sold to the public-whats the point of rally? To prove the
>standard product that is sold!
>
> What I'm getting at is there are no parts to buy for the
>Focus to rally that are well proven, not like in the group
>1-4 days escorts. For rally to be a success to the consumer
>which in turn is a success to the manufacturer the cars have
>to be based on stock production vehicles made in large
>numbers with plenty of easily and inexspensive available
>homolagated parts.

Yeah, tell that to NASCAR, Formula One and just about every other form of professional motorsport that races cars that have little or no resemblance to the street car. How many people buy Ford, Chevy, Pontiac, etc cars because of NASCAR which has even less resemblance to the street car than WRC cars?

It is about brand recognition not about selling specific cars!
 

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CR>R5 into L3- 100 Finish
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
>As for bad Focus sales, the father of a friend of mine owns
>a couple large Ford dealerships. Moving Focci has been so
>hard to free up space and move them he was giving them away
>with 2004 F-150s as long as the F-150 went at sticker. Even
>giving them away he only moved about 90 in 4
>dealerships......
>This isn't how it is everywhere but from hearing him talk
>its a pretty common problem in a lot of the US....

Yes, I agree. The Focus was not promoted properly either.
And when it comes to cars, the majority of us Americans want big, bad, tough trucks and cars that burn a lot of fuel unneccessarily.
As statistics show, only 2% of all trucks and SUV's ever see dirt or workloads.

Whiplash RallyeSport
 

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>>
>> Duval is getting very good and showing ability to be a
>>champion.
>>
>> Ford should pull out, current WRC cars have no trickle
>>down to consumers and most rally fans are smart enough to
>>realize this. Nothing on a WRC car is the same as the car
>>sold to the public-whats the point of rally? To prove the
>>standard product that is sold!
>>
>> What I'm getting at is there are no parts to buy for the
>>Focus to rally that are well proven, not like in the group
>>1-4 days escorts. For rally to be a success to the consumer
>>which in turn is a success to the manufacturer the cars have
>>to be based on stock production vehicles made in large
>>numbers with plenty of easily and inexspensive available
>>homolagated parts.
>
>Yeah, tell that to NASCAR, Formula One and just about every
>other form of professional motorsport that races cars that
>have little or no resemblance to the street car. How many
>people buy Ford, Chevy, Pontiac, etc cars because of NASCAR
>which has even less resemblance to the street car than WRC
>cars?
>
>It is about brand recognition not about selling specific
>cars!

Well I haven't seen any F1 cars on the road-nor anything that looks close. NASCAR is a show and the fans know it-they don't buy cars because of NASCAR race cars...

I also disagree with you regarding WRC cars and NASCAR's-WRC cars are no closer to the street car then NASCAR except for 2 people in the car.
 

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RE: Brand recognition wasDuval

>>It is about brand recognition not about selling specific
>>cars!
>
> Well I haven't seen any F1 cars on the road-nor anything
>that looks close. NASCAR is a show and the fans know
>it-they don't buy cars because of NASCAR race cars...

No, but they buy the BRAND of car (and tend to be very supportive of that particular brand), which was Morgan's point...

> I also disagree with you regarding WRC cars and
>NASCAR's-WRC cars are no closer to the street car then
>NASCAR except for 2 people in the car.

They are a little closer because the WRC bodyshell starts life on the same assembly line (or perhaps in the same stamping plant) as the street car does. It rapidly gets modified significantly, but that is closer than dropping a generic body onto a tube-frame car snd painting it to look like something.

Adrian
 

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>
> Duval is getting very good and showing ability to be a
>champion.
>
> Ford should pull out, current WRC cars have no trickle
>down to consumers and most rally fans are smart enough to
>realize this. Nothing on a WRC car is the same as the car
>sold to the public-whats the point of rally? To prove the
>standard product that is sold!

Sean, no longer.
It's all about promotion.
And impressing those little kids who have never rallied but only watched.
Or taken snap-shots.
Dontch remember that despite the fact that Morgan posted a photo where you could identify more than 3/4 of the people in the photo as over 40 including your brother, who does by the way look marvelous, he correted you and said that they were all under 30.
So he knows.
You're wrong.
>
> What I'm getting at is there are no parts to buy for the
>Focus to rally that are well proven, not like in the group
>1-4 days escorts.
Well wrong again Sean, I have a block casting and a head casting that they are using down stairs and I think they use the front windscreen.



For rally to be a success to the consumer
>which in turn is a success to the manufacturer the cars have
>to be based on stock production vehicles made in large
>numbers with plenty of easily and inexspensive available
>homolagated parts.
Speaking aof which, are you gonna put together that long rod 16v you've been talking about?





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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>Do you actually have anything useful to add to this thread
>or do you only know how to be an [email protected]#$%le?


WOW, that's uncalled for!! You need to appolegise or spend sometime in the corner by yourself until you can learn to deal with others.

Morgan: I think it's great that you too are a fan of rally-I also think it's great that you have a different opinion of things then I, and that you bring up some great point's and different way's of looking at things then I, even if I disagree many times with you.

Let me just say that I would not be interested in rally if I just today found out about the sport at it's current level. The translation of current WRC cars to production cars has no real direct relation to the cars at the dealer show rooms-therefore to me it is just an excersise in custom building race cars, much like NASCAR, F1 or TransAM for that matter-whats the point?

I think SCCA rally is much better from the stand point of what is currently running is production based and most is mildly modified at best. Although I do agree it's boring to watch-but I still attend many events.
 

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>
> WOW, that's uncalled for!! You need to appolegise or
>spend sometime in the corner by yourself until you can learn
>to deal with others.

Tell that to JVL, he is the one that needs to learn how to deal with others


>
> Morgan: I think it's great that you too are a fan of
>rally-I also think it's great that you have a different
>opinion of things then I, and that you bring up some great
>point's and different way's of looking at things then I,
>even if I disagree many times with you.
>
> Let me just say that I would not be interested in rally if
>I just today found out about the sport at it's current
>level. The translation of current WRC cars to production
>cars has no real direct relation to the cars at the dealer
>show rooms-therefore to me it is just an excersise in custom
>building race cars, much like NASCAR, F1 or TransAM for that
>matter-whats the point?

Quite simply,If you don't like it, then don't watch it. Millions of people do like it now, so I guess it is not much of a problem

I am just telling you how it is. For car manufacturers it is about branding, not selling a specific car (although that is an added bonus). Sales from a race bred car would be a very small part of overall sales. In many cases, people that like racing are forced to buy cars based on their position in life, ie. they need a minivan or some other practical car, and it is important that those people buy the brand, not a specific car. And that is the point. Obviously, it works for NASCAR (how many Ford or Chevy p/u trucks with nascar stickers do you see out there?), F1 and it works in WRC too or no one would have built WRC cars in the first place. Why do you think car companies get involved with other sports such as cycling, golf, Tennis, etc? Branding

If you don't want to accept that, well then I don't know what else to tell you.
 

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>Quite simply,If you don't like it, then don't watch it.
>Millions of people do like it now, so I guess it is not much
>of a problem

Millions have always liked rally, just because media has brought it into American homes recently does not mean it's good rallying/racing. Why do you think NASCAR has turned into such a show-trying to create stars and driver conflicts (soap operas)because NASCAR too is boring.
I was even talking on the phone today with a friend that track races, he said he agrees watching cars go round the track is boring, when he isn't driving he pays no attention.
>
> I am just telling you how it is.

Opinion!

For car manufacturers it
>is about branding, not selling a specific car (although that
>is an added bonus). Sales from a race bred car would be a
>very small part of overall sales.

Worked well for Porsche. But I agree with what your saying.


In many cases, people that
>like racing are forced to buy cars based on their position
>in life, ie. they need a minivan or some other practical
>car, and it is important that those people buy the brand,
>not a specific car. And that is the point. Obviously, it
>works for NASCAR (how many Ford or Chevy p/u trucks with
>nascar stickers do you see out there?),

A NASCAR sticker does not equal brand loyalty due to racing-One see's NASCAR stickers on marques not racing. The other side is look how well the WRX has sold.


F1 and it works.

Sorry never seen anything F1 related accept for the occassional sticker.


in
>WRC too or no one would have built WRC cars in the first
>place. Why do you think car companies get involved with
>other sports such as cycling, golf, Tennis, etc? Branding
>
>If you don't want to accept that, well then I don't know
>what else to tell you.

I understand what your saying-I understood it years ago when you first made the statement-I just don't buy it! Being in the Auto industry for many years and watching many brand campains fail.
Look at the current prospect of Ford at WRC level-it appears Ford isn't seeing the Brand pay-off for the dollars spent.


As I said before good points-and trust me I get what your saying-I just don't know anyone that these branding techniques work on-but maybe the people I know use their brains-scary thought.

Also knowing people that work for Manufacturers-well lets just say some aren't the sharpest tool in the shed.

Now Harley Davidson is probably the best of product Branding-just not the best product for the money.
 

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> Millions have always liked rally, just because media has
>brought it into American homes recently does not mean it's
>good rallying/racing.
Why do you think NASCAR has turned
>into such a show-trying to create stars and driver conflicts
>(soap operas)because NASCAR too is boring.

Because people were good at marketing it. I find it boring, you find it boring, and your friend finds it boring, so I guess it must be boring then. Yet millions watch it on TV and racetracks are filled with many thousands of people and sponsors are dropping big money on it. Perhaps it is not boring to some, you think?

I find baseball (and other mainstream sports) really boring too (so therefore everyone should find it boring too, right?) heck the players are not even from the city, let alone the country, the team is representing. That's a lot like how Rally cars are not exactly like there street car counterparts, eh?

And just because you can't buy the car for the street does not mean it is bad racing.
IMO the rally action has been pretty good, with a fair amount of drama the past few years. Far more than other motorsports. I think the TV coverage has been bad though

Do you think manufacturers were so involved with Group B just so they could sell the 200 road cars they made? That hardly seems worth it


> I was even talking on the phone today with a friend that
>track races, he said he agrees watching cars go round the
>track is boring, when he isn't driving he pays no attention.
>>

I guess that means it is boring to everyone then

>
> Opinion!

Actually, not really, as a photographer I directly work with with ad and marketing companies and that is what it is about, Branding. I have a good friend who has been doing automotive ad campaigns for many years, and he always refers to them as branding campaigns.
>
>
> Worked well for Porsche. But I agree with what your
>saying.

Worked well for Porsche because they created a brand, why else would anyone buy a Porsche SUV? same for Ferrari, ferrari is as much a brand as a car these days.



>

>
> A NASCAR sticker does not equal brand loyalty due to
>racing-One see's NASCAR stickers on marques not racing.

So you don't think people are loyal to Ford, Chevy, Pontiac, etc because of NASCAR? I do, I have seen it.


The
>other side is look how well the WRX has sold.

Like I said, that's a bonus. Here in the US, I would not be surprised to find out that for every rally fan that bought a WRX, two or more people people bought one despite knowing nothing about rally, I know a few people who bought one who don't even know what rally is (not to mention the amount of dorks you see in WRX's around here)
WRX's sell themselves, and the advertising and magazine stories put the word out about the car.

Cadillac is now racing in the Speed World Challenge, by there own admission, the reason they are involved is to try and change the image of Cadillac to something with a bit of excitement.
BTW the CTS that is WC racing is as modified as a WRC car

>
> Sorry never seen anything F1 related accept for the
>occassional sticker.

I have seen plenty and I know plenty of diehard F1 fans and it is all about Ferrari this or that, or Mercedes, jaguar, etc.
Besides, F1 fans tend to have more money and are a bit more discrete.

So why does F1 even exist then if it has no marketing value?



>
>
> I understand what your saying-I understood it years ago
>when you first made the statement-I just don't buy it!
>Being in the Auto industry for many years and watching many
>brand campains fail.

Some work some fail, that is the way it is.

> Look at the current prospect of Ford at WRC level-it
>appears Ford isn't seeing the Brand pay-off for the dollars
>spent.


And they have not won a championship in years either, but the fact remains, we don't know the behind the scenes of the decision, and nothing has been announced yet, so you are speculating.
Yes it is a money spend vs value ratio that makes the decision, and it is a balance, but that does not mean there is no value at all in it for them.

>
> As I said before good points-and trust me I get what your
>saying-I just don't know anyone that these branding
>techniques work on-but maybe the people I know use their
>brains-scary thought.
>


I have said the same thing too, all that marketing crap is BS, yadda yadda, I have never had any kind of advertising, marketing or branding, etc effect any decision I made ....awe crap I'm driving a Subaru:+



It's all very subtle and you may not even notice the effect but it is pretty amazing that it works, heck companies spend millions on this stuff.

A good example, and I hate to bring up politics, is the whole Kerry Flip Flop thing, whoever thought that one up was a genius! Everyone talks about the Flip Flop... It's a slipper for crying out loud!
 

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>So I am wrong here, huh, John? Of course, you are the
>"expert" on everything

No just some things.
It seems you seem to believe that by hanging around some flashy cars and snapping some nice pictures you know everything, and for all I know, you just might, and all the rest of us are all morons, not you.
>
>
>Do you actually have anything useful to add to this thread
>or do you only know how to be an [email protected]#$%le?

Hey Morgan, a long time ago when you were expounding your expertise aboubt the Only Way wa sto build the sport from the top down I mentioned some illiteracy figures from the Dept. of Education in Massachesetts being somewhere around 51% of the adult population being functionally unable to grasp what they rear and you took offence for some reason..

Go look at the post Einstein's lost nephew, it says "Hey Sean...."
It was addressed to Sean, and it goes on to say 'He's right', referring to you.
And I said to him he was wrong on another point.
I think I'll ##### slap Sean next time I see him for being so foolish.

So why are you pissed off?

Still having trouble reading are you?

Oh by the way since when is stating the obvious contributing to a discussion?





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 
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