[steveracer13]

Proper "NASCAR-style" (sorry for the dirty word) door bars prevent you from using a window regulator (crank or electric). How can you prove safe exit from the vehicle if the doors are closed?

From reading the NASA rules it appears that you need to have some way of lowering the side windows with the doors closed (or some other means of exiting the vehicle). If you have door bars that bend out into the doors, that seems impossible. I was planning on replacing the door glass with fixed lexan panels, maybe with sliders, but I don't see a way to satisfy the rules on the safe exit issue.

Any ideas? What have people done that have these types of door bars?

Thanks!!

 

[bentmettle]

Maybe rewind and explain why you're looking at that style vs. the various door bar types outlined in the FIA construction specification documents?

Do you know what size tubing you were planning on using for door bars, diameter and thickness? How many?

Is your vehicle a 2 or 4 door?

edit: Basically, I think you've chosen a door bar configuration that doesn't offer strong benefits over "conventional" door bars, and create all sorts of other practical issues.

 

[steveracer13]

2 door e30 BMW. Road race car with existing cage. I can either cut the NASCAR door bars on the driver's side or add them to the navigator's side. Currently has dual bars protruding into the door (actually touches the door skin) plus a sill bar. Single diagonal on nav's, plus a sill bar. I believe they are all 1.75 x 0.90 DOM.

The driver's window is still glass but not secured for racing, just transport. The nav's side is elec regulated glass.

 

[bentmettle]

I'd leave the sill bars in, cut the driver door bars out and put in 2 more 1.75" door bars. And find a new driver's side door.

Do you have a Windshield reinforcement bar going from the foot of the A-pillar to the junction of the tube going across the top of the windshield?

 

[steveracer13]

I'm not against that but I do like the side impact protection of the bent door bars. Also the elbow room. I need to add corner gussets, A-pillar bars, front strut tie-in, etc. Good starting point but work to do.

New door = no problem.

thanks for the input.

 

[bentmettle]

What about bent door bars do you feel gives you more protection than the same number of straight bars?

The extra room is great when you get a distributed load- like hitting a wall flat, but with a point load, maybe a tree, once that tube collapses and the arc starts bending, there is nothing to stop it.

The ladder bars tieing the bars in together are there because without them, there is no way to control any torsion forces on the tubes.

The straight bars don't give you as much room, but they do have a much better defined end state.

 

[rally99]

For what it's worth, from CARS for lexan windows - double check the approperiate rulebook -I expect the wording ( intent anyway) would be similar

[/COLOR]COLOR="blue"]II -C -9(e) For open, group 2 and group 5 vehicles, it is permissible to replace glass side windows with
Lexan of like or greater thickness than the original glass. However, competitors must be able to
display to the satisfaction of the event scrutineer that the mounting of the substitute windows will
allow both emergency escape from inside the car and access by rescue from the outside of the
car..[/COLOR]

Whichever way you go,
Definately keep the sill bar - the middle of the X bars in current fashion has been getting a bit high and I expect a rule change to require sill bars up here in the not too distant future. As you look at the door bars, picture what would happen if they are too high and you hit a tree in mid roll with the floor pan - it bends up to the first bar taking the seats with it.......it has happened to a friend of mine - fortunately, the injuries weren't too serious

Mike Dyer
Rallywest Tech director

 

[logic]

Have a look at the new mini door bar design

That is the way the FIA will be going in a few years

 

[johnhuebbe]

 

[rally99]

The way they change things around, I have my doubts the FIA knows where it's going tomorrow, let alone in a few years......

Nice cage, for myself I'd definately add a lower door sill bar than is there. I do kind of wonder why on a high end FIA cage build like this they wouldn't put in FIA legal seat mounts....

 

[bentmettle]

It will be interesting to see how this trickles down.

The tie in with the B pillar is absolutely crucial, but if you don't have engineering data on the B-pillar, you wouldn't really know what you are working with there.

The "typical" non-homologated construction outlined in section 253 provides a base design that acts fairly predictably independent of the structure of the car. Once you know a bit about the car, and have some engineering resources, you can move different directions.

I've seen these pictures before, but am now just struck by how much they've shaved off the front end! It's also wild to see how far back the seats are pushed when they're not saddled with a stock floor pan.

 

[bopApocalypse]

Nice cage, for myself I'd definately add a lower door sill bar than is there. I do kind of wonder why on a high end FIA cage build like this they wouldn't put in FIA legal seat mounts....

Curious what you mean - since this is a WRC car, one would assume that the seat mounts etc. are FIA legal and homologated.

 

[rally99]

It's a little hard to see in the pics and they may not be finished, but the mounts are welded to the body and tunnel and appear to mount the seats on tabs off the mounting bars. FIA is pretty clear that the mount system has to be bolted to the body and you have to bolt through the cross bars with re-inforcement in the holes. Any other mountings would have to be homologated - which I assume they've done.

Some FIA rules make you go ??? CARS just sent out a clairification bulletin allowing welding the mounts ( the requirement for FIA mountings came into effect June 1 this year for all new logbooks - there is some lee way in approving older cars ). Explains why seat mounts are on the brain - I've been looking at a bunch lately

One of Bentmettle's comments prompted another question, ---what are the Open class rules in RA & NASA ?, for CARS you have to keep the stock floor pan, so this car may have other issues in getting a logbook.

 

[johnhuebbe]

It looks like they kept the stock floor pan, just modified it for the tunnel.

 

[bentmettle]

I'd be curious to hear some explanation for the bolt on method for seat rails.

I can immediately see that it would make construction a bit easier, and allow removal to weld the bottoms of the rails well, something that is difficult in many installations. But I don't quite understand the prohibition against welding the mounts to the plates after they're installed.

 

[Billy Elliot]

I'd be curious to hear some explanation for the bolt on method for seat rails.

I can immediately see that it would make construction a bit easier, and allow removal to weld the bottoms of the rails well, something that is difficult in many installations. But I don't quite understand the prohibition against welding the mounts to the plates after they're installed.

Probably for what you stated. Allows you to get the rails pretty much on the floor. I welded my seat rails to the end plates, then welded the plates to the car. But I still have a good inch clearance below the rails, which was enough to get the welder in there.

 

[rally99]

I'd be curious to hear some explanation for the bolt on method for seat rails.

I too would be curious to hear the reason behind several FIA rules and why we're following them.......reading through the whole FIA section 253 besides helping insomnia causes a few ??????? moments - fortunately so far we are only worried about cages and now seats and mounts

But I think you're onthe right track plus the 2 different thicknesses of metal and getting a good weld, may also be a flex / deform rather than break in a crash thing.

Has Rally America and NASA gone to the FIA cage and seats / mountings as well ?

 

[bentmettle]

Has Rally America and NASA gone to the FIA cage and seats / mountings as well ?

Cage, yes.
Seat mounts, not yet.

 

[rally99]

Cage, yes.
Seat mounts, not yet.

That's what I thought from some comments on other threads, I do have a Rally America rule book but it's waaay old.

I am of two minds on the move towards FIA rules. In a way it's a pain with more rules to cross reference between books, but it seems to be making a common ground and making it easier for cars to move between CARS, R.A., and NASA - which has been worked on for years ( since SCCA & CASC ) but has never gotten totally there yet.

 

[bentmettle]

I think it's nearly fantastic.

When you are building the car, if you follow FIA section 253 for the construction aspects- safety geometry primarily, it's pretty clear. Component selection, such as fire suppression and seats, you are back into the individual sanctioning bodies domains.

The only hiccup is porting of DOM tubing sizes into the size chart, but that's pretty trivial.

I haven't looked at the "new" seat mount guidelines for CARS- got a link to those?