Hi rally world its me again!?!? On the new driver in Fast car thing.If you KNOW of a new driver that has crashed at a rally could you post it here , please. At Prescott there was a Audi right. But there was a Ford truck that had no ODO for the nav, blow a control at a high speed and to the ditch on a turn that you HAVE to have a ODO to see. Was he new? Last year a new drive rolled and ask the form some things and I THINK alot (?) of drivers came back about crashing there first rally. Just would like to see some numbers if this is a prob or just newbe's having a bad day. thanks David To the gravel !!
Do you know of a new driver thats CRASHED
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When I was a kid, I had a motorcycle. My father would tell me
that I was most dangerous after about six months of riding. By
that time, I'd have some ability/confidence to ride, but not
enough experience to handle any situation. Rallying is like
that. It isn't a question of "Who crashed on their first rally."
(But to that list I'd like to add Valentino Rossi.)
It is more a question of "Who has crashed in their first
few rallys, before they knew what they were doing." This is
a very long list. It is driving too fast for condition/ability
that causes the bad accidents.
Patrick
that I was most dangerous after about six months of riding. By
that time, I'd have some ability/confidence to ride, but not
enough experience to handle any situation. Rallying is like
that. It isn't a question of "Who crashed on their first rally."
(But to that list I'd like to add Valentino Rossi.)
It is more a question of "Who has crashed in their first
few rallys, before they knew what they were doing." This is
a very long list. It is driving too fast for condition/ability
that causes the bad accidents.
Patrick
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196 Posts
Maybe a shorter, easier to compile list, would be who has NOT crashed in their entire rally career. I would venture to say that just about everyone has had an "off" to some degree. Some not as bad as others, but I would imagine that with the right (or wrong) conditions, a simple harmless off could be compounded into something worse. I'm sure there are lots of stories of "experienced drivers" with the "correct equipment" that have had a "huge" off because of some small, otherwise normal condition.
I know I'm not on the list x(
I know I'm not on the list x(
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699 Posts
Well I know that by the time I actually made it to the track I had crashed my street bike so much that I had gotten most of the dumb manuovers out of my system. If you haven't been to a SCCA road race I can tell you people go off pretty regular but most tracks of good run-off.
I think the problem is Rally as "Run into" and not Run-off!
As far as the newbies go , at our Rallysprint this year we did have a new driver roll - he was in a stock class car.
Tom Grossmann
I think the problem is Rally as "Run into" and not Run-off!
As far as the newbies go , at our Rallysprint this year we did have a new driver roll - he was in a stock class car.
Tom Grossmann
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1,194 Posts
Way back when I was 19 I drove a RX2 on my first rally as a driver. I got a bit wide on a sweep left and had a very soft off getting stuck. That was the end of my first rally. No damage to the car, did not hit anything but scary none the less, not because of what happened but because I could see how close I was to driving the car down a cliff. The experiance put enough fear in me that I did not have another off until the age of 33, some 14 years later.
All we need to do us find a way to scare the living crap out of new drivers with out killing them.}> That should help keep them undercontrol no mater what car they drive.
Derek
All we need to do us find a way to scare the living crap out of new drivers with out killing them.}> That should help keep them undercontrol no mater what car they drive.
Derek
Well, the 2003 world champion just had a nice little roll! What does that tell us about experience? That even the best get it wrong sometimes.
The reason we have the safety equipment is poo-poo happens to everyone-the stages play no favorites.
I don't see limting car types, installing governors to limit speed or anything stopping boo-boo's. However I do think that a lot of boo-boo's are caused by lack of concentration & distractions.
What I do think a beginner should consider is this: "Odds are I will end up damaging this car in the course of rallying, how much finacial out lay and I'm willing to loose should the car be destroyed"? This is a very real situation, one that most of do not consider until we find ourselves there. At which time a lot of people disappear from the sport while the debts are paid off if not retire from the sport.
Rally what your willing to loose and can afford to run when boo-boo's happen.
As always IMHO:+
The reason we have the safety equipment is poo-poo happens to everyone-the stages play no favorites.
I don't see limting car types, installing governors to limit speed or anything stopping boo-boo's. However I do think that a lot of boo-boo's are caused by lack of concentration & distractions.
What I do think a beginner should consider is this: "Odds are I will end up damaging this car in the course of rallying, how much finacial out lay and I'm willing to loose should the car be destroyed"? This is a very real situation, one that most of do not consider until we find ourselves there. At which time a lot of people disappear from the sport while the debts are paid off if not retire from the sport.
Rally what your willing to loose and can afford to run when boo-boo's happen.
As always IMHO:+
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404 Posts
>All we need to do us find a way to scare the living crap out
>of new drivers with out killing them.}> That should help
>keep them undercontrol no mater what car they drive.
EXACTLY!!! When my dad began roadracing nearly 40 years ago, an instructor get in his car and do about 4 laps around Lime Rock, (I think that was the track...) and did things with my dad's PV544 that he didn't think possible, and scared the hell out of him. When the instucter finaly pulled into the pits and got out he told dad that he "had been driving at about half racing speed just to give you an idea". At which point my dad, who was incedentally the fastest guy in his New York suburb, felt about 2 inches tall and thought he'd never be able to go that fast. He found out a few years later from and friend of that instructor, that the guy had been driving as fast as he could turn a wheel, and did that purposly so that hopefully beginers would realize they didn't know the first thing about going fast and would hopefully take it easy until they figured out what they were doing. It certainly worked with dad, we still have his first race car awaiting restoration.
Yes, it is more likely to hit objects in rally because we have no runoff areas or gravel traps. One would think that is all the more reason to make driver schools mandatory, if for no other reason than to try to keep ppl from hurting themselves.
Nick "Member of the Turtle Club" Polimeni
P.S. Yes, I totaled my first rally car 1.07 miles into my first stage due to over confidence. I hadn't been properly "scared."
>of new drivers with out killing them.}> That should help
>keep them undercontrol no mater what car they drive.
EXACTLY!!! When my dad began roadracing nearly 40 years ago, an instructor get in his car and do about 4 laps around Lime Rock, (I think that was the track...) and did things with my dad's PV544 that he didn't think possible, and scared the hell out of him. When the instucter finaly pulled into the pits and got out he told dad that he "had been driving at about half racing speed just to give you an idea". At which point my dad, who was incedentally the fastest guy in his New York suburb, felt about 2 inches tall and thought he'd never be able to go that fast. He found out a few years later from and friend of that instructor, that the guy had been driving as fast as he could turn a wheel, and did that purposly so that hopefully beginers would realize they didn't know the first thing about going fast and would hopefully take it easy until they figured out what they were doing. It certainly worked with dad, we still have his first race car awaiting restoration.
Yes, it is more likely to hit objects in rally because we have no runoff areas or gravel traps. One would think that is all the more reason to make driver schools mandatory, if for no other reason than to try to keep ppl from hurting themselves.
Nick "Member of the Turtle Club" Polimeni
P.S. Yes, I totaled my first rally car 1.07 miles into my first stage due to over confidence. I hadn't been properly "scared."
>All we need to do us find a way to scare the living crap out
>of new drivers with out killing them.
Find a rally stage with a huge vertical cliff nearby. Take the new driver there, tie him to a bungie cord and throw him down }>
Or even better, strap driver/nav in their seats, get a BIG bungie cord, tie the car to it and throw it down :*
>of new drivers with out killing them.
Find a rally stage with a huge vertical cliff nearby. Take the new driver there, tie him to a bungie cord and throw him down }>
Or even better, strap driver/nav in their seats, get a BIG bungie cord, tie the car to it and throw it down :*
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459 Posts
I'm sure sister Kristen will post something about this, but let me post the link to the VIDEO!! First event as a driver:
http://www.nwscan.net/jon/ktdw4sm.mpeg
Also, other smart things we've done:
http://www.nwscan.net/jon/
(Thanks, brother Jon!)
Mark Tabor
www.taborrallyteam.com
(edit: corrected links for moved files!! doh!)
http://www.nwscan.net/jon/ktdw4sm.mpeg
Also, other smart things we've done:
http://www.nwscan.net/jon/
(Thanks, brother Jon!)
Mark Tabor
www.taborrallyteam.com
(edit: corrected links for moved files!! doh!)
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89 Posts
I crashed. I spent several years road racing and had dozens of spins, a few see-god experiences at places like the kink at RoadAmerica, quite a bit of rubbin', but never a major accident. Most tracks have a nice soft landing spot to catch you when the inevitable happens.
In road racing, as in rally, as you begin to get faster there's a transitional period when you are dangerous to yourself and those riding with you (or around you). You tend to not have all the skills you need yet. The same happens in flying. It's why private pilots with less than a few hundred hours are not very insurable.
The problem with rally is that there aren't always soft landing spots when a spin or a slide occurs. In my case, we slid off the road into a tree. We, as a team, had finally got our car sorted and we were building nice speed. Were we pushing our limits? Hell yes! That's why we are in this sport. Am I sorry that we were taking that approach rather than a more gradual learning curve? Not really.
The only regret I do have is that we were too stupid to realize that a rally stage is more dangerous than a track with close walls and concrete - places I avoided when road racing (e.g. IRP). From a safety point of view, a rally stage is a very dirty environment and you need better safety equipment than you do in racing. (HANS devices at a minimum.)
Having hit a tree head-on at a reasonably low speed with the attendant bobble-head sore neck, I find it miraculous that no one in rally has died from a Basal Skull Fracture injury (Dale Earnhart-style). That's partially a testament to the skills of rally drivers, but it's also a statistical artifact of the small community involved (compared to road racing). It will happen some day. I'm going to do what I can to make sure it's not me or my co-driver that proves me right.
Here's our crash write up again http://www.silenus.com/lspr2002
Ken Hawley
Silenus Motorsports
Kalamazoo, MI
Audi 4000Q - #577
In road racing, as in rally, as you begin to get faster there's a transitional period when you are dangerous to yourself and those riding with you (or around you). You tend to not have all the skills you need yet. The same happens in flying. It's why private pilots with less than a few hundred hours are not very insurable.
The problem with rally is that there aren't always soft landing spots when a spin or a slide occurs. In my case, we slid off the road into a tree. We, as a team, had finally got our car sorted and we were building nice speed. Were we pushing our limits? Hell yes! That's why we are in this sport. Am I sorry that we were taking that approach rather than a more gradual learning curve? Not really.
The only regret I do have is that we were too stupid to realize that a rally stage is more dangerous than a track with close walls and concrete - places I avoided when road racing (e.g. IRP). From a safety point of view, a rally stage is a very dirty environment and you need better safety equipment than you do in racing. (HANS devices at a minimum.)
Having hit a tree head-on at a reasonably low speed with the attendant bobble-head sore neck, I find it miraculous that no one in rally has died from a Basal Skull Fracture injury (Dale Earnhart-style). That's partially a testament to the skills of rally drivers, but it's also a statistical artifact of the small community involved (compared to road racing). It will happen some day. I'm going to do what I can to make sure it's not me or my co-driver that proves me right.
Here's our crash write up again http://www.silenus.com/lspr2002
Ken Hawley
Silenus Motorsports
Kalamazoo, MI
Audi 4000Q - #577
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2,759 Posts
In the last 2 years or so, and just at event I attended, and just significant incidents, and just with new competitors:
- Sawmill; already mentioned
- 100 AC wood; already mentioned
- Sandhills: a new fellow from MS; hit bank 1/2 mile into first stage at a dumb place to wreck; just going way too fast for his experience; he was OK and car not too bad; it stands out because it was DUMB
- Rally New York: A good rally-x'er; rolled fairly hard; judgement not there in my opinion
Further in past with new competitors:
- POR in mid 80's; 3rd event; definitely bad judgement on icy bridge with other contributing factors; bad cage, fell apart; one compeitor died
- STPR in early 90's; a freak death based on the way the car flipped and slid; may not have been judgement problem
- STPR in 1979: ME! 3rd event, just got that stupid invincible feeling; learned hard what the red mist was all about. If I'd hit the oak tree 3 feet further forward, it would have been right in my door. With only roll bars required, you could have added my name to the list of badly injured or dead newbie ralliers. And that was RWD, 100 HP.
If you like, I can go back through dozens of events and review the incidents from what I can remeber; these are the ones that just easily pop into mind. But it'll point to the same conclusion.
Are you looking for evidence to be convinced or what?? If it'll save your rear, I'll put some real effort into this. Or you can just take some words of experience from several commentors.
And please note: Many folks seem to have no problem being a bit scared and timid early on. Those folks do OK; it's the 'no or limited judgement' guys who get the red mist and get in trouble in a bad way.
Regards,
Mark Bowers
- Sawmill; already mentioned
- 100 AC wood; already mentioned
- Sandhills: a new fellow from MS; hit bank 1/2 mile into first stage at a dumb place to wreck; just going way too fast for his experience; he was OK and car not too bad; it stands out because it was DUMB
- Rally New York: A good rally-x'er; rolled fairly hard; judgement not there in my opinion
Further in past with new competitors:
- POR in mid 80's; 3rd event; definitely bad judgement on icy bridge with other contributing factors; bad cage, fell apart; one compeitor died
- STPR in early 90's; a freak death based on the way the car flipped and slid; may not have been judgement problem
- STPR in 1979: ME! 3rd event, just got that stupid invincible feeling; learned hard what the red mist was all about. If I'd hit the oak tree 3 feet further forward, it would have been right in my door. With only roll bars required, you could have added my name to the list of badly injured or dead newbie ralliers. And that was RWD, 100 HP.
If you like, I can go back through dozens of events and review the incidents from what I can remeber; these are the ones that just easily pop into mind. But it'll point to the same conclusion.
Are you looking for evidence to be convinced or what?? If it'll save your rear, I'll put some real effort into this. Or you can just take some words of experience from several commentors.
And please note: Many folks seem to have no problem being a bit scared and timid early on. Those folks do OK; it's the 'no or limited judgement' guys who get the red mist and get in trouble in a bad way.
Regards,
Mark Bowers
Um... I know one
>Last
>year a new drive rolled and ask the form some things and I
>THINK alot (?) of drivers came back about crashing there
>first rally. Just would like to see some numbers if this is
>a prob or just newbe's having a bad day. thanks David To
>the gravel !!
I think you mean me. Actually, people talked about rolling in their first rally BEFORE my first event. With so many others doing it, I figured that was a good way to start But seriously, I'm one of those thick-headed types who only learns by doing. Had to learn the hard way.
And I followed other advice and started in a low powered 2WD, but still managed a 40+ mph 1 & 3/4 half gainer roll. So having been there-done that, I don't think the car matters as much as the driver. Red mist was new to me. But I learned a great lesson- what my limits are. I think Derek said it best about scaring new drivers. That roll shocked me back into place, and now I strive for finishes within my limits.
But that fatefull day wasn't a "newbie having a bad day". I had a great day! Running flat out, on the limit (sometimes over), trees screaming by, sliding around, is what got me totally hooked. I had a grin a mile wide during that stage :7 And I think I'll be a better (safer) driver because of the roll in the long run.
Rembember: There are 2 types of rally drivers- those who have rolled, and those who WILL!
Rick
#277
(3 rallies, still only 1 roll)
>Last
>year a new drive rolled and ask the form some things and I
>THINK alot (?) of drivers came back about crashing there
>first rally. Just would like to see some numbers if this is
>a prob or just newbe's having a bad day. thanks David To
>the gravel !!
I think you mean me. Actually, people talked about rolling in their first rally BEFORE my first event. With so many others doing it, I figured that was a good way to start
But seriously, I'm one of those thick-headed types who only learns by doing. Had to learn the hard way.And I followed other advice and started in a low powered 2WD, but still managed a 40+ mph 1 & 3/4 half gainer roll. So having been there-done that, I don't think the car matters as much as the driver. Red mist was new to me. But I learned a great lesson- what my limits are. I think Derek said it best about scaring new drivers. That roll shocked me back into place, and now I strive for finishes within my limits.
But that fatefull day wasn't a "newbie having a bad day". I had a great day! Running flat out, on the limit (sometimes over), trees screaming by, sliding around, is what got me totally hooked. I had a grin a mile wide during that stage :7 And I think I'll be a better (safer) driver because of the roll in the long run.
Rembember: There are 2 types of rally drivers- those who have rolled, and those who WILL!
Rick
#277
(3 rallies, still only 1 roll)
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404 Posts
>A driver died at Ski Sawmill a while back.
Navigator, not a driver. I know, I signed his timecard...
Nick Polimeni
'71 Volvo 142E (Up on stands for a major overhaul)
Editor, Blue Mountain Region, SCCA
[email protected]
Navigator, not a driver. I know, I signed his timecard...
Nick Polimeni
'71 Volvo 142E (Up on stands for a major overhaul)
Editor, Blue Mountain Region, SCCA
[email protected]
Joined
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381 Posts
RE: Um... I know one
For all of the above reasons this is why a governor will be installed in my new Gr2 car. A picture of my 3 year old daughter right on the instrument panel.
Jim Wright
Wright On Time Rally Team
P-Stk Suzuki Swift GT
(Up to Gr2 for 2003)
For all of the above reasons this is why a governor will be installed in my new Gr2 car. A picture of my 3 year old daughter right on the instrument panel.
Jim Wright
Wright On Time Rally Team
P-Stk Suzuki Swift GT
(Up to Gr2 for 2003)
Yeah, when I saw this thread I first thought, "yeah, me!"... I didn't think Mark would post the link to the movie there, though! D'oh!
Background: it was the second day of the Doo **** weekend a couple years ago. I had had a great first day, and, I admit, I was overconfident about things. I zoomed up Brooklyn Tavern, so the adrenaline was pumping when we got to Smith Creek.
I was out of the line, in the marbles, approaching the corner; I was going way to fast for the conditions and my level of experience. I remember thinking that to myself, wow I'm going too fast, so I downshifted. And in a FWD car, when you do that, you've just lost control. Which is what happened. We started sliding sideways, and I didn't have the confidence enough to keep my foot in it. We were going sideways, but also straight ahead; we hit the bank, popped up in the air, flopped on to my side of the car and then the roof, and that was all she wrote.
So... overconfidence, inexperience, and 145hp... That's my story!
Background: it was the second day of the Doo **** weekend a couple years ago. I had had a great first day, and, I admit, I was overconfident about things. I zoomed up Brooklyn Tavern, so the adrenaline was pumping when we got to Smith Creek.
I was out of the line, in the marbles, approaching the corner; I was going way to fast for the conditions and my level of experience. I remember thinking that to myself, wow I'm going too fast, so I downshifted. And in a FWD car, when you do that, you've just lost control. Which is what happened. We started sliding sideways, and I didn't have the confidence enough to keep my foot in it. We were going sideways, but also straight ahead; we hit the bank, popped up in the air, flopped on to my side of the car and then the roof, and that was all she wrote.
So... overconfidence, inexperience, and 145hp...
That's my story!
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313 Posts
RE: Um... I know one
We all know of more than one, or are the one who crashed. This sort of thing strengthens the herd. We all will crash sooner or later. Why not crash early and often to shorten the learning curve.
I started off too poor and drove conservatively. If I had the chance to start all over again, I would have pushed the envelope more, so that I could learn more quickly. People tend to learn and heal quicker when they are young.
Ted Mendham
We all know of more than one, or are the one who crashed. This sort of thing strengthens the herd. We all will crash sooner or later. Why not crash early and often to shorten the learning curve.
I started off too poor and drove conservatively. If I had the chance to start all over again, I would have pushed the envelope more, so that I could learn more quickly. People tend to learn and heal quicker when they are young.
Ted Mendham
RE: Um... I know one
Well, add my name to the list. I finished my first 2 rallies driving carefully, and then crashed out on the third when I started pushing (in snow, on a road known to be treacherous, stupid me) I learned more during my (short) third rally than I did in the first two, and 3 years of cone squishing. My next attempt will be on the conservative side (have to ease back into it after smacking a bank and going for a toboggan ride down the embankment on the other side). Yes, I think I have been "sufficiently scared". I got lucky the damage was fairly minimal, it could have been a lot worse given the degree of the "exposure".
Well, add my name to the list. I finished my first 2 rallies driving carefully, and then crashed out on the third when I started pushing (in snow, on a road known to be treacherous, stupid me) I learned more during my (short) third rally than I did in the first two, and 3 years of cone squishing. My next attempt will be on the conservative side (have to ease back into it after smacking a bank and going for a toboggan ride down the embankment on the other side). Yes, I think I have been "sufficiently scared". I got lucky the damage was fairly minimal, it could have been a lot worse given the degree of the "exposure".
My first 'real' rally. 'Pacific Forest(?)' in '96.
Stoopid newbie driver thinks that he is a doing just a fine driving without brakes (darned braded flexi brake lines) and is hanging the tail out to scrub speed (Did I mention that I was a stoopid newbie driver?). We are in day two with bent suspension and that dreaded 'red mist' which is soo common of an affliction. Dumb newbie driver comes around the right turn, tail goes real wide, driver's rear clips terra firma which does a bang up job of correcting the oversteer but the steering is already at the lock to the left and I steer the car into the ditch on the left at lightning speed. The car finds a nice soft stump to (mostly) arrest forward motion which turns our remaining momentum into a rather nice rolling motion with the car landing on the drip rail of the roof on his side of the car (made one of those noises that I can to this day play back in my head like it just happened). The car went over two or three more times, and I got the nice view out the windshield as it cracked into about a bajillion pieces. To this day Dave Clark cusses me about how I made such a mess of my nice, just completed rallycar. Dave---I know that you are lurking----thanks again for the good rollcage that saved my life in that one. It has done that a few times now ;-). Driving while newbie is (now that I look back at it) dangerous, and no amount of coaching is going to get a young male to realize that he isn't as good as he thinks. Be safe folks. heehee. Regards,
John Lane
Viva Le Pro Le Ralliat
Stoopid newbie driver thinks that he is a doing just a fine driving without brakes (darned braded flexi brake lines) and is hanging the tail out to scrub speed (Did I mention that I was a stoopid newbie driver?). We are in day two with bent suspension and that dreaded 'red mist' which is soo common of an affliction. Dumb newbie driver comes around the right turn, tail goes real wide, driver's rear clips terra firma which does a bang up job of correcting the oversteer but the steering is already at the lock to the left and I steer the car into the ditch on the left at lightning speed. The car finds a nice soft stump to (mostly) arrest forward motion which turns our remaining momentum into a rather nice rolling motion with the car landing on the drip rail of the roof on his side of the car (made one of those noises that I can to this day play back in my head like it just happened). The car went over two or three more times, and I got the nice view out the windshield as it cracked into about a bajillion pieces. To this day Dave Clark cusses me about how I made such a mess of my nice, just completed rallycar. Dave---I know that you are lurking----thanks again for the good rollcage that saved my life in that one. It has done that a few times now ;-). Driving while newbie is (now that I look back at it) dangerous, and no amount of coaching is going to get a young male to realize that he isn't as good as he thinks. Be safe folks. heehee. Regards,
John Lane
Viva Le Pro Le Ralliat
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