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NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!!
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Discussion Starter #1
I came across an idea which at first seemed simple, then got complicated, but which ultimately became simple again (for me, at least).

What is the procedural definition of DNS? When is DNS appropriate versus DNF?

It's the multiple possible scenarios that made it interesting.

Anders
 

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Dramamine is for DramaQueens
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What do Domain Name Servers have to do with rally?

In all seriousness I would say that DNS is reserved for teams that make it through registration but don't get through tech or the starting MTC.
A team that doesn't make registration is a withdrawal, by default, (or DNS being did not show?)
A team that leaves the first MTC but doesn't make the first stage has definitely started the rally.
Seems simple
w/d
DNS
DNF
 

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Dramamine is for DramaQueens
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How does it get complicated?
Is this not a fairly basic yes/no situation?
 

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Registered
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Did not start the stage=DNS stage time.
Registered for event, but never registered a stage time = event DNS.

DNF= did not finish stage and/or event.

In hillclimbs where the timing is not cumulative, dns represents a forfeited run. If you get four runs an only elected to take three, the fourth is a dns. The second you leave the start line, if you fail to make the finish you earn a DNF.
 

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Hardwire your 2m radio and forget to turn it off Fri night = DNS Sat morning.
 

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A team that registered and the name was posted on the preliminary start order yet withdrew or didn't show could be a DNS. Also someone who failed to complete the first transit might be a DNS. A DNS is an automatic DNF , but a DNF might not be a DNS. Other scenarios TBD and results TBA...
 

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DNS = A team that registered/paid entry fee/did NOT withdraw during any available opportunity and did not depart the event's first MTC. This theoretically covers those entrants who fail to arrive at the event, fail to complete tech satisfactorily, etc.

Once you've started from the first event MTC, you have started the event and therefore would be scored a DNF/Max Penalty/Max Late.

That's my view

Brad
 

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your other left, you idiot
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In the "good old days" we used to get points for "starting", so this might have made a difference (probably not in NASA land.........).

I recall an event where we couldn't get the car started, so I walked through the first MTC and convinced the workers to give me my card, with a start time on it. We never left the parking lot. Is this kinda/sorta where you are going Anders?

press on,
 

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Itinerant Co-Driver
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I think the question of what constitutes a DNS hinges on what constitutes a start.

Putting my pedant hat on and flipping to the NASA Rallysport rulebook, it seems to me that by 2.21.2, the start is the point at which the team receives its time card for the first section:

At the start of the rally, each crew shall be given a time card on which the time allowed to cover the distance between two consecutive time controls should appear. This card shall be handed in at the finish control of one section and replaced by a new one before the start of the next section.
This says to me that if a team receives its first time card, then it's started the rally... so for a team to be classified "DNS", it can't have received its first time card.

Now... the thing I'm not sure of is whether a team that entered and then withdrew should be considered "DNS".
 

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straight at T
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IMHO, they shouldn't even be on the entry list. Hence neither a DNS or DNF.
If they withdraw before the close of registration/before registering then they shouldn't be on the entry list. A DNS should only be for a registered entrant who, for whatever reason*, doesn't start the rally (i.e. fails to pas through the first control).

*some possibilities:
- broke the car in shakedown
- car failed to start in parc expose
- failed to finish the first regional, therefore DNS on the second (STPR, where one rgional just continued from the other with no break)
- one or more of the crew became ill before the start
- car failed tech
etc.

Adrian
 

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NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!!
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Discussion Starter #13
In the "good old days" we used to get points for "starting", so this might have made a difference (probably not in NASA land.........).
The Atlantic Rally Cup does have start point, and yes, that's why it's relevant.

I think the question of what constitutes a DNS hinges on what constitutes a start.
I agree. I think that if you find yourself rallying during a weekend, you must have started rallying at some point. ;) For how could one be doing something now if one hadn't started doing it earlier?

So, at least in my opinion, as it relates to the philosophy of NASA Rally Sport, the "TC Zero" status is not relevant to the DNS status. There's a million ways not to finish a rally, a wide variety of combinations of controls or days that could be missed (discounting superrally ideas) that would result in a DNF. But to my mind, the only way to DNS would be to miss all controls of an event (after having successfully passing tech and completing registration, and thus being eligible to be on the start list).

It's certainly uncommon, but "starting" a rally at some non-TC0 location does happen from time to time, and that's when it gets more complicated. It would be entirely possible to have three simultaneous statuses:
Day1 - DNS
Day2 - Actively Racing
2DayEvent - DNF

The thought experiment came up as some of the racers at Empire State were listed as DNS.... when DNF more correctly describes the scenario. Danny, for some reason, missed the entire first day including TC0, and thus was marked as DNS in scoring. Day 2 comes around and he's racing again, but since he's obviously out of contention for the 2 day ARC standings, no one is really paying attention to DNS or DNF, and so the status does not change. Out of the twelve stages, he has times only for the last 4. In my mind, he's as deserving of the 4 start points as someone who ran the first 4 stages but no others. And this definition matches with the intent of the behavior the rules would like to encourage. (which is POR'ing and getting out on stage)

Of course this particular scenario (side topic) is also interesting in that it points out the dual potential meanings of "Finish" (in the language, not in the rule set), because Danny did make it to the finish line, thus "finishing", in a way, although not completing, the rally.

I didn't see any DNS definitions in the rule various books, and there's certainly some differing thoughts within this thread. I'll be adding a clarification to the NRS rules for the future.

Cheers :D
Anders
 

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No, your other left!
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DNS should only apply to someone that paid but didn't make it to the first control. Therefore, if there are start points available, they just bought them. If they got a refund, they don't get the DNS, nor the start points.
 

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Zero Cents!
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DNS should only apply to someone that paid but didn't make it to the first control. Therefore, if there are start points available, they just bought them. If they got a refund, they don't get the DNS, nor the start points.
The point is that the DNS precludes one from starting points. One should only receive start points when the start the event (day) and then do not finish, regardless of where the DNF occurs. In summation, in level of highest accomplishment:
Don't show up at the event, or make it to the point were you can receive a refund - Withdrawal - No Points
Reg, tech, whatever, we have your money. Do not make it TO the starting line, do not get a time card. - DNS - No Points
Get a time card, drive (walk if your name is Jimmy) towards the transit/stage but do not finish the event - DNF - Staring Points
Finish the event, place somewhere, get fame, fortune and sponsorship offers - Place XX - Starting Points & Finishing Points
 

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No, your other left!
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I keep thinking of it in terms of autox or rallyx events that I run: If someone comes through registration, pays, and then fails tech - I give them a refund and delete their entry.
 
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