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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
No that's touque as in the famous question "Where's you're toque, eh?"
I have no been told by three different Pro Rally Board members that when they sign on, they have been told explicitly not to post anything here on these forums.

The presumption is that all of us reading these pages are appearantly too stupid to grasp that there can be a number of different roles that individuals might have and that there is no means imaginable to allow the PRB meembers who might wish to comment about their viewpoints on a issue which would make clear that they are commenting as Joe Bloggs rally licence holder and competitor, or Joe Bloggs PRB member stating his opinion, or Joe Bloggs PRB member citing chaper and verse.

Now I am told that the person telling the PRB members is the fellow who has claimed what the sport needs is a "benevelant dictator", which might be arguable if the beneveant dictator in question had any experience in the sport, but I would still question the need.

What I want to know before I suggest to Jim Konkler on the SS Feedback forum is this:
Do you all want to have your fellow competitors and accaintences who sometimes are PRB members be able to comment on things in their role as FELLOW COMPETITORS here on SS.com?

Would you all like to see PRB members taking part in discussions and debates on the PROCESS of rule formation here?

This could be easily accomplished by giving them all 2 sign on names each indicating the role they are speaking in. Easy. Then all we would have to do to see if the opinions were Bloggs the VW driver or Bloggs mothing inane platitudes from the Party line would be to check the sign on name and the signature.

Geeeeeze that weren't hard wuzit?


You all know that I have some wacky ideas about the democratization of the Rally world and those that know me better know that I point to Sweden and English Club systems as the route that slowly must be built up and point to our Cousins up in the Great White North as the nearest example of how the system might work.
As part of that I believe that these forums have become the de facto place where, when it is convenient to SCCA are used as the means for reaching the memebership, and I think they should be Officially become a Siamese Twin Official Outlet for SCCA info and interchange.

Is the idea of a democratic governance and administration of a lesuire time social based activity truly outlandish?

I can see nothing but advantages if there were open and frank discussion and nothing served by secretive crap except mistrust and suspicion.

This is assuming that when a question is posed to a person it gets addressed exactly as asked.

Myself I would make mandatory PRB and PRD answering public questions.

It is absurd to think they have the time to answer dozen or hundreds of individual questions yet no time to answer 1000 people at once.

So whaddya Tsink?



John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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RE: Democracy in SCCA

John,

Well, Comrade, I agree....mostly. I think SCCA should openly acknowledge that Special Stage already is THE discussion forum for Performance Rally in North America and participate in it fully. I also think members of the PRB (and other volunteer positions) should never be asked to refrain from posting a personal opinion or position. Paid staff should only perform a clerical function.

The core of the current problem is that the PRB has no power now, and the Rally Membership has no recourse to decisions implemented by the Paid Staff. There should be no place for a "Dictator" of any kind.

Performance Rally Board members should be elected by the membership and empowered to act on their behalf. The process of dealing with issues should be open to the membership BEFORE any conclusion is a "Done Deal". At the same time, SCCA's volunteer board members should be allowed the privacy the deliberate "MATTERS FORMALLY UNDER CONSIDERATION" without having to explain every thought process in minute detail in advance of reaching a formal conclusion. After reaching a conclusion their reasoning and intentions should be fully explained. Most deliberative thoughts and ideas will be incomplete or poorly formed until matters are thoroughly aired and concluded. Many items will die or come to nothing. Some have no good solutions. I think a representitive form of governance is better than a pure democracy in this circumstance. PRB members should be free to act without excessive scrutiny, but should also be accountable to the membership for their actions.

Rich Smith

Vive le "Pro-le-Ralliat"
 

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I think the idea of making SpecialStage Forums the "official" discussion board of the SCCA *Rally is a GREAT idea. It's already popular, and run well. If the SCCA web site(s) are any indication, I doubt they could do something as cool, so they would be very smart to contract, license, whatever the SS folks to do it.

I like the idea of dual logins for PRB members too... a lot of really positive things could come out of continued, public, frank discussions.

Skye Poier
Seattle, WA

Vive le Prole-le-Ralliat!
Member, CCCP - Canuck Covertly Collecting Points
Member, Sierra Club - Ford, that is
 

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To dreamers or(drummers)like...John

Would any head of states discuss the politics openly if UN decideded to start "kind" of forum?

John, my friends in Nowosimbirsk are looking for rally marshal for the rally. Would be interested? I am sure they would love kind of guy like you.

Jerry
 

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>To dreamers or(drummers)like...John
>
>Would any head of states discuss the politics openly if UN
>decideded to start "kind" of forum?

Well not quite that good but here in Seattle my company had a little disagreement with the City over some develoupment rights, with in a week of the ruling against us we wrote a nice letter and the city produced all the internal documents, e-mail, coraspondance and such so we could read in detail about the interworkings of the city government and how they came to their ruling.

If the city of Seattle needs to be that open and is, how can SCCA, a club, not do the same?

Good old De Toqueville - he came over looked a round, liked what he saw went home wrote about it and the the French got a little revolution. So is John saying we need to get out the Guillotine to reform the SCCA?

Derek
 

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>
>Good old De Toqueville - he came over looked a round, liked
>what he saw went home wrote about it and the the French got
>a little revolution. So is John saying we need to get out
>the Guillotine to reform the SCCA?

You know Derek; It may just take exactly that to get our PAID REPRESENTATIVE in charge to wake up and smell the coffee. I am always told of all manner of wonderful things that are supposed to be coming our way by his work, and am still doing my best at waiting to see ANY REAL BENEFIT to all the garbage we are having to put up with so that we may have our 'Benevolant Dictator.' Hmmmmmm.........
Happy New Year folks. 2003 can only be better No?
John Lane
Viva Le Pro Le Ralliat
 

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My rights vs. what's right

No one ever took away my right to speak on Special Stage, but I did agree to a couple of things when I joined the PRB.

1. It would be bad for someone to read the opinion of a PRB member and assume it was the official position of the PRB. So, when it looks like something I post might be confused with official PRB position I'm very careful to make it clear that this is MY opinion.

2. SCCA.org is where the PRB/PRD's official statements are made, but George frequently posts here that there's something new there.

Personal note: I'll frequently either stay silent, or drop out of a particularly hot topic... mostly so I can read all sides of the topic without publicly picking a position.

J.B. Niday
www.nidayrallysport.com
 

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I like the the public forum for SCCA communication idea. We have all seen it work very well for our mate John Dillon and the three hats he has worn on SS.

I'm sure our SS adminies would love to put a SCCA forum next to the one for CNAR.

I personally would love to see the SCCA PRD/B using the poll feature to ask the membership to vote on issues. I think a second "log in" feature would have to be used, one that used our rally licence number.


Charles
Viva le MR2 #295!!!
 

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RE: Vote on Issues

>I personally would love to see the SCCA PRD/B using the poll
>feature to ask the membership to vote on issues. I think a
>second "log in" feature would have to be used, one that used
>our rally licence number.

Charles,

Excellent idea! And, perhaps, the task of an elected PRB might be to sort out the appropriate issues and frame the ballot.

Rich Smith

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>No that's touque as in the famous question "Where's you're
>toque, eh?"

As a Canadian I am deeply offended by that crass stereotyping of my Northern bretheren, eh!!!

Skye Poier
Seattle, WA

Vive le Prole-le-Ralliat!
Member, CCCP - Canuck Covertly Collecting Points
Member, Sierra Club - Ford, that is
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
AH! somebody is catching on! A subtile reference to Canada!

>>No that's touque as in the famous question "Where's you're
>>toque, eh?"
>
>As a Canadian I am deeply offended by that crass
>stereotyping of my Northern bretheren, eh!!!

What stereotyping? I did'nt suggest they were a bunch of beer swilling goofy newfies did I? (mais peut'etre nous laper le biere quand nous somme en Qubec, heh?)
So HAH!

What it was a reference to, (and it's OK for you to have missed the referece since you are Canajian and I don't expect the whole world to be fascinated with America, eh)it was the 1830s book which all Americans with minimal education know titled "Democracy in America" where the Frenchman Alexis de Touqueville travelled around the US, then barely 50 years old and wrote a book which is really interesting in it's applicability in some areas, for our purposes the comments on general political apathy.
IF I was refering the the guy.
But it was also a subtile reference to the Great White North and the fact that somehow our cousins up there where you come from actually have a rudimentary democratic process already in place in the form of the questioneers sent out to licence holders.

As with a number of other things the question becomes HOW DO OUR COUSINS UP NORTH IN CARS-Land manage to have this attitude of actually polling membership?
And the collory to the question, what is seen as funny by Jerry, or impossible by others of starting at this point the process of democratization of this sports administration and governance?

It seems to me that no real significant initiatives have come from the SCCA "Central Services" for 10 years.

The Western States Championship is the ONLY new thing and we all know it is a direct result of the dissatisfaction and rejection of the BS policies pushed relentlessly by PRDood, and has NOTHING to do with SCCA other than sanctioning.

The proposed revision to Gp2 to GpTuTuToo was again a response to a glaring ongoing problem within the rules and complete inaction by SCCA to the old, original proposal.

Latest thing is a question of insurance,at the proposed 2 day Hoquiam Instruction/ log book annual/ tech session/ new licencee school/ and Rallysprint day 2 is in danger due to idiotic levels of SCCA insurance premium of $57 per car for a sprint vs $2.50 per car if we call it a rallycross. The insurance man at SCCA said that he had brought up this
glaring anomoly to the PRB several times with no action each time, and after several non-returned phone calls to SCCA, the answer was finally given "The PRB will not be taking up this issue this year."

Would this be different if there was oversight and accountability by membership?

What do you all think? Why do some think the secrey is needed or advisable, this is not State Security after all.
(I almost want to ask if people's contempt for democratic intsitutions extends to other things but I'm afraid of the answer :( )


>
>Skye Poier
>Seattle, WA
>
>Vive le Prole-le-Ralliat!
>Member, CCCP - Canuck Covertly Collecting Points
>Member, Sierra Club - Ford, that is





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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RE: AH! somebody is catching on! A subtile reference to Canada!

>What it was a reference to, was the 1830s book which all Americans >with minimal
>education know titled "Democracy in America" where the
>Frenchman Alexis de Touqueville travelled around the US,
>then barely 50 years old and wrote a book

John, I do have at least a minimal education, and I'm American,
but I have not heard of this book. It "should" be a part of high-school civics, right? Well, I went to a fairly decent public high school, and this book was NOT a part of the curriculum. I think I can safely say that this book is probably not currently a part of most public schools' curriculum. (Which helps to explain a lot about the state of affairs in our modest union of states.)

>which is really
>interesting in it's applicability in some areas, for our
>purposes the comments on general political apathy.

(sings)If you're apathetic and you know it, clap your hands...

>And the collory to the question, what is seen as funny by
>Jerry, or impossible by others of starting at this point the
>process of democratization of this sports administration and
>governance?
>
>It seems to me that no real significant initiatives have
>come from the SCCA "Central Services" for 10 years.

Maybe I'm just off my rocker, but I get the feeling that Performance Rally is the red-headed stepchild at SCCA HQ. Historically, PerfRally has been what, maybe 5% of the membership? So now, with the new WRX owners contributing, our "market share" is increasing slightly, but not all of those WRX'ers are even going into Rally! It makes me wonder why the SCCA is even associated with rallying, or why you rallyists allow yourselves to be associated with the SCCA!

>Would this be different if there was oversight and
>accountability by membership?

I hate to point it out, but there's a lot of work that goes into that kind of thing. After all, someone has to read all those questionaires. And then formulate all the information into a reasonable and workable policy! Jeez, even the best minds in Washington, D.C. can't do that!

>What do you all think? Why do some think the secrey is
>needed or advisable, this is not State Security after all.
>(I almost want to ask if people's contempt for democratic
>intsitutions extends to other things but I'm afraid of the
>answer :( )

John, secrecy is absolutely necessary to keep people like you (the informed, experienced, rational individual) from meddling in the affairs of the SCCA (aka: The Corporation).

>John Vanlandingham
>Seattle, WA. 98168
>
>Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

Kevin Hawkinson
Viva la Revolucion!
 

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RE: De Toqueville - " eBay"

Oops, missed the auction, but nobody bought it, so I sent him an email.
4 bucks ain't bad... Maybe I can pick it up, and add it to the CCCP library!
 
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