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Discussion Starter #1
There has been lots of ramblings back and forth under the CRS heading about the listing of the Reno Rally being the week before Laughlin and the threat it causes the CRS and the Laughlin Rally. There are some issues that need to be cleared up as to why the Reno rally was moved to that date and why it shouldn't be treated as a David vrs Goliath story or them vrs us.

Before I get too much further it must be pointed out that despite the story getting started under the CRS forum the Reno Rally is in fact part of the Pacific Rally calender and the last points event for Rally America and its Western Regional Championship. The pictures and the orginal story started under the CRS forum to invite our friend s from the South to go and play of some great roads. This was all done before the switch from early November to the first weekend in December.

This is where the plot thickens. Without beating to death all the details, under request by the BLM to pick a date after December 1st if I wanted to have an event during this calender year. There were several phone calls back and forth with the BLM trying to work out an earlier date before this decision was reached. These are public lands yet they hold the keys and if I hadn't already had a possitive history with them we wouldn't have gotten anywhere.

After posting the announcement of the dates for Reno I started getting phone calls and emails, mostly positive support and then the question on the date being on top of Laughlins. I call right away to cofirm things with Ray and explain why the date change. I was correct in that Laughlin was the week after Reno. ray expressed some concern about the possibility of losing a few entries and couldn't see how I was going to make it but wished me luck anyway.

There have been several phone calls and email messages from higher ups in the CRS to both Rally America and myself attempting to get the date for Reno changed. there have even been requests to have Reno become a true snow Rally by holding it in January or February. It's just not that easy and there are reasons for the November, early December time frame.

Reno in the past has had a rocky road to haul (Excuse the pun) and has been canceled or thrown together at the last minute for several years now. This is my first go round at the top of the chart and I want that kind of reputation to stop. reno is a great location with some super roads and like Tony has stated, it would be the prefect location for an end of the year Rally for the Pacific Rally Group, Rally America, and the CRS. Located in the middle we could put on a heck of a year end party.

I like the proposel that John Dillon brought up about having a true winter Rally in Reno but it just isn't practical at this point in time. I have no true idea what to expect and how to put on such an event having never competed in more than 4 to 6 inches of snow on a stage. Oregon Trails during a snow storm was my wecome back to Rally after stepping aside for several years. I saw the damage to the roads and the carnage that was caused. I have never had to go back and regrade a road after any of the events that I have been involved with. I will ,ook at these roads in late January and February to cosider the possibility of such an addition regional event in the future and how to best handle it. I'm sure that the WRC teams don't practice in Mexico to race in Sweden and that's what it would be like without proper planning.

Back to the date issue, I have been asked the question and yes it is one of the worst kept secrets that Reno is being looked at by Rally America and they indend on adding Reno to it's National calender as the final event of the year after LSPR and having the awards here as well. Yes, reno will also be a part of David Sutton's American Adventure Rally and for both of these events it only makes sense to do a "dry run" for both events under simular condition and time frame as when they will be ran in 2006.

An interesting thing about the calender for the USRC in 2006 is how there are in fact several conflicting dates with well known rally America events on the West coast that will indeed start this whole mess again next year. In fact moving Laughlin to it's November date in 2006 is right on top of the proposed date for Reno next year as a National, perhaps doing this in December instead might prove to be a
good thing. Also look at the dates for RIM and Olympus next year and the conflicts they cause. Isn't also interesting that the 'return' of the Olympus Rally being added to the USRC calender is being ran by a group that hasn't to the best of my knowledge ever ran an event?

Anyway it would be nice if we could all get along for the best of the sport. Who knows this could become a good thing if people would stop complaining and look at the positives. Having two events fairly close together one week apart just may encourage more teams to make the haul out. If we were both smart about it we could put together maybe a special rate and prise fund for those who did both events. There's lots of possitives. I'm even willing to store some cars between events if teams want to run Laughlin and need a few days storage.

I'm done for now and I hope this clears some issues up.

David Hackett
Reno Rally Chairman
[email protected]
775-843-8973 cellular
 

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don't cut
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There are those of us who claim that competition (amongst sanctioning bodies) is good for the sport, and those of us that feel it isn't. As I have stated previously, until now we don't know since we never really had true competition. As my poll showed a few weeks ago, most people run what's closest, not what they consider "better".

Well, now we have competition. Two similar rallies, in the same region, on practically the same weekend. Except for the real die hards intent on making them both, people are gonna have to choose, Rally America or NASA. It looks like Ray and Dave will be our geunie pigs (spelling?). May the best sanctioning body win.

Dennis Martin
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920-432-4845
 

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Dennis,

What do you mean by "May the best sanctioning body win" ?

I don't know how you guys work things over on the east side but here in the west, I am starting to think we are friendlier.

What makes you think this is an issue of who is a better sanctioning body who is not ? From my point of wiew, for what ever the hell it's worth, both sanctioning bodies are doing their best to provide us with rallies to run. I am a competitor, not an organiser, not a member of the media, not a spectator. I run whatever rally is going to give me points in a series I am trying to score points in or whtever rally I like or whatever rally is going to give me more fun per dollar. I don't give a northbound rat's southend about who is sanctioning what rally.

Both David and The Hockers are people I respect and appreciate for all they are doing to provide us rallies to run and do what we like to do when we are not pushing pencils, clicking mouses, turning wrenches or whatever else we are doing to support our rally addiction. Therefore I support both rallies, hell if I can find a way to do it I'll run both of them.

Now instead of trying to instigate, make it a battle of sactioning bodies (which I bet they are not aware of) let's try to work things out and have both rallies as a part of CRS schedule next year.

Even though you have nothing to do with CRS and run/ran one CRS event so far, you are welcome to participate in whatever capacity you may find suitable aswell.

Cheers
M.Samli

PS: If I sounded a bit harsh, oh well.
 

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Dave before you start talking about Olympus you need to get your facts straight. The same people who have been putting on great rallys here in the Northwest are the same people who are doing Olympus.Just some of us are takeing on new postions.

About your date conflicts,The only schedule that has been posted for 2006 is USRC.so there are no conflicts as of today.

We in the Northwest made it clear that we wanted a national rally back here in Washington. USRC NASA offered we accepted.We are already working full speed ahead to make the Olympus weekend here in Washington a Great,Exciting,Fun event.

Steve McQuaid
Chairman Olympus Rally
 

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Hi David,

The Reno roads look great, and I'm sure it will evolve into a great event. Also, Laughlin has always been one of my (and I'm sure many other CRS competitors as well) favorite events.

The problem with having two regional events so close together is that it cause conflicts with time off available, cash flow and car preparedness. Many competitors have problems with the amount of time they can take off and when. It's a lot easier for most people to take a day or so off every month than several days in close proximity. Cash flow is also likely an issue for most - it's a lot easier, for example say, to scrape together two sets of $1000 a month apart than a week apart.

But I believe the biggest issue is probably car preparedness - which is why I believe it is primarily the CRS drivers that have been most vocal on this issue. Given that a fairly average DNF rate at many events is in the 30-40% range, it is likely that many competitors will not be able to run one event and fix any resulting damage and re-prepare the car mid-week for an event on the following weekend. So, many competitors that want to run Laughlin will likely not run Reno for fear of damaging their car. And, vice versa, many competitors that run Reno will not have a car that is mechanically ready for Laughlin. This is not good for either event, and will likely impact entries for both. I don't believe most competitors care who the sanctioning body is. As Mustafa pointed out however, many do care which series they will score points in, and nearly all care about the grin factor (giggles / dollars).

I understand that your hands were somewhat tied w.r.t. the date for this year's event, but to not plan for these events to be a minimum of two, and preferably three or more weeks apart in 2006 would likely again be detrimental for both events and seems IMHO foolish, especially when we only have 8 or so local events a year and there are currently no events in Jan, Feb or November. Though I do believe many competitors actually like a several month break just after Christmas since it provides an opportunity for those that want to to do a car rebuild at the beginning of the year to do so. Though you are obviously free to do whatever suits you best and you feel will be best for your event, my personal vote would be to have Reno mid-to-late November (3-4 weeks after LSPR) as the Rally America series finale and Laughlin in early-to-mid Decemeber (in its traditional slot and 2-3 weeks after Reno) as the CRS finale.

Do note that I am very pleased that there will be another local event, and hope that the Reno Rally turns out ot be a great success.


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Discussion Starter #6
I'll try to make it clearer, like I said nobody that I was aware of with Chairman experiance was in charge of the Olympus Rally. I have ran in many Northwest events and Reno is a part of the Northwest, I know John Forespring and Ben Bradley personally and they have even stayed at my home. I've many friends in the Northwest and Oregon regions and if I have been misinformed who is in charge of the Olympus Rally or they have experinace that I'm unaware of at the head of the table then I'm sorry.

I'm out here trying to do my best and prove myself and my event so that it's worthy of becoming a National Event in the future. It's not an easy task and I wish the best to all who put the time and effort to put on a Rally. You're right, USRC did publish their calender first and I would think that knowing that Oregon Trails has a history with their date that one would converse with the powers that be before picking dates like I have been accussed of.

Important point is that I'm over 500 miles from Laughlin putting on a Regional Rally that was moved per request by the BLM during the final quarter so to speak. Reno Rally is a Rally America Western Region, Pacific Rally Group event, not a CRS nor NASA Rally.

All I have to ofer at this time is some great roads in a great little city, no large purses, shiney watches, just a great time.

I understand if someone choses their event over mine, if someone is in a fight for a championship I fully expect them to go with that group if it's Rally America, CRS, NASA, or USRC. If they decide to run both events then more power to them.

David
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I'm well aware of these facts and if it were my choice I would have stayed with the early November date, it's not and I picked the next best date for 2005. Again, if you look at next years USRC calender you well find that Laughlin is moving to mid November for 2006.

I'm trying to make the best of what has happened and for reasons mentioned doing a January or November Rally at this point is out of the question.

David
 

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>
>I'll try to make it clearer, like I said nobody that I was
>aware of with Chairman experiance was in charge of the Olympus
>Rally. I have ran in many Northwest events and Reno is a part
>of the Northwest, I know John Forespring and Ben Bradley
>personally and they have even stayed at my home. I've many
>friends in the Northwest and Oregon regions and if I have been
>misinformed who is in charge of the Olympus Rally or they have
>experinace that I'm unaware of at the head of the table then
>I'm sorry.
>

Okay, but that's somewhat different from what you said in your previous post. And as I am sure you know (or will no doubt find out), while the position of Rally Chairman is obviously a highly important and key position, putting on a rally and the success of a rally is also strongly related to the collective experience and also the number of people involved in making it happen. A person's desire, time and the effort that they put in is much more significant than whether they have held a particular position before. While having preferences is only natural, casting aspersions on other people or groups in a public forum is generally considered poor form.


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Rally - I don't need no stinkin' epi pen to get my adrenalin rush !!
 

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>
>I'm well aware of these facts and if it were my choice I
>would have stayed with the early November date, it's not and I
>picked the next best date for 2005. Again, if you look at next
>years USRC calender you well find that Laughlin is moving to
>mid November for 2006.
>

Thanks for setting me straight on the Laughlin 2006 date change. For people that only intend to run one or the other series, I suppose it doesn't much matter, but hopefully (and especially if it is the intention of the Reno Rally to become part of either the WSRC and/or the CRS series) you and Ray can work together to schedule 2006 dates that result in the best possible outcome for both events.


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Dave,

There's some misconception regarding the USRC's 2006 calendar and specifically the dates announced for Rim and Olympus.

Rim's date has been moved one weekend earlier for 2006. As soon as I learned of the need to change our date, I called Ben Bradley. That was back in April, before either of our 2005 events. At that time Ben told me he wouldn't be returning as chairman in 2006 but would pass the information on to the rally's committee. We hoped that 13 months would be sufficient notice but are prepared if a date conflict results. As you may remember, in 2004 Oregon moved from July to April two weeks before Rim.

If Oregon doesn't choose to modify their date, Rim is still a 1,000 miles away. This shouldn't cause any difficulty for the regional competitors in either the Northwest or California. This is a different kettle of fish than the Reno/Ramada situation.

The Olympus Rally is taking the place of the Dryad/Shitepoke rally but moved two weeks earlier removing the date conflict with STPR. There's no reason this move should cause anyone heartburn.

The USRC was proactive in announcing our 2006 calendar far in advance in an effort to lessen confusion and conflicts. While it is reasonable to expect some date conflicts across the entire country, we've been sensitive and proactive in our attempt to prevent any regional conflicts.

Ray Hocker
Clerk of the Course, Ramada Express Rally
 

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David and, not vs, Goliath

Hi, Dave,

Thanks very much for accepting the Organizer's hat for the Reno Rally. As you've already discovered, it's an INCREDIBLE amount of work and I, for one, appreciate having another reasonably local event.

Thank you too for offering a tentative schedule that shows us codrivers can do both.

On top of that, thanks for offering to store cars for people wanting to do both.

We've already talked about options for this year, and understand the situation. Hopefully it'll work out for your event, which I look forward to, and Ramada, my favorite U.S. rally. With over a year until the follow-up event, I'm sure you guys will have plenty of time to optimize the 2006 calendar.

Keep on working hard, keep up the dialog, and keep on giving us more venues. Best of luck to you and your committee.

Rally on!

John

P.S. Who's Goliath?

P.P.S. Reno is already part of the WSRC, though it's not a points-paying event this year.
 

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>Dennis,
>
>What do you mean by "May the best sanctioning body win" ?
>
>
>Now instead of trying to instigate, make it a battle of
>sactioning bodies (which I bet they are not aware of) let's
>try to work things out and have both rallies as a part of CRS
>schedule next year.
>

Believe me, the sanctioning bodies are well aware of a battle. Two sanctioning bodies has essentially killed open wheel racing in the US. It also killed professional rollerblading a few years back. Our illustrious leaders are smart enough to know this. They are fighting for organizers, fighting for rallies, and when conflicts exist, they will be finally be fighting for competitors. Many well respected individuals have maintained numerous times on this board that competition between sanctioning bodies is a good thing. I guess we'll see how right or wrong they are come December.


>
>Cheers
>M.Samli
>
>PS: If I sounded a bit harsh, oh well.

Bastard! J/k. Let's fall back on our common hobby of picking on Shu.


Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 

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RE: David and, not vs, Goliath

John,
I'm glad to hear that Reno is part of the WSRC... can you explain how an event is "part" of the championship w/o paying points? Or is that just a polite way of saying, "You're a little late to the party, we'll include you next year"?

Which, BTW, isn't a "bad" or "wrong" answer... adding events mid-season has a way of messing up the table.

J.B. Niday
www.nidayrallysport.com
 

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RE: David and, not vs, Goliath

>
>I'm glad to hear that Reno is part of the WSRC... can you
>explain how an event is "part" of the championship w/o paying
>points?
>

Hi JB,

There is a pool of WSRC events, but only a specific set of X out of Y actually count towards the championship in any given year. Each year the list of which WSRC events count towards the championship changes in an effort to keep things fair between events while trying to keep the total towing distances to all point-scoring events as equal as possible no matter where you live on the west coast.

Details in Section 2 of the rules on :

http://www.wsrally.org/rules.html

HTH.


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Rally - I don't need no stinkin' epi pen to get my adrenalin rush !!
 

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RE: 2 events in a week

When I went to OT and Rim, it was on two consecutive weekends. A year later I went to Alberta for Big Horn and Rocky with a much nicer sightseeing trip between them than towing at 55 down to LA.
Makes a lot of sense to run two in a row if you're traveling really far, but a bit more notice is needed, especially late in the year when all the vacation time (and money!) has been allocated.
Consider them one big rally with a longish service stop.
Maybe a special award for finishing both??
rz
 

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WSRC (Was: David and, not vs, Goliath)

Another thing about an event being part of the WSRC is that the event organizer has a voice and a vote in the running of the championship, including what will be the points-paying events in the next year.

Both Reno and Ramada are part of the WSRC.

Reno ran as two C2s (I may be wrong on the coefficients) in 2003. There was planning to run Reno last year, but the rally was not held because of a schedule conflict with Tarline (which ended up being cancelled after road permissions were withdrawn).

alan perry
chair, WSRC
 

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RE: WSRC (Was: David and, not vs, Goliath)

I'm happy to see a Rally come back to the Reno Area. Just don't forget that many People from all over Helped put on the Events starting with the Reno Int'l Rally in 81, 82 and then the Carson City Int'l Rallies in 83, 85, 86.
I was a Reno local and met John Forespring, Ron Barker, Mike Nagle, and others from CRS, SF, NWR, Reno Regions.

Nothing wrong with running an event in December, its been done before in Reno.

Lets just figure out some dates and get the thing Rolling.


Dave Folker
 

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RE: WSRC (Was: David and, not vs, Goliath)

Out of all the rallist in the states only a very few will ever run full season and even less competitors will choose one sanctioning body over the other. Most of us will run events that are
1, Close
2, Give us greater value for our $ (every event has gotten more expensive and only few have added extra value to the competitor)

So if you already have handful of events in your area and then events can't find to give each other 2-3week separation, it hurts everyone, competitors, organizers and sanctioning bodies. We all loose.

Sometimes going to my kids pre-school and listening to bunch of 3 year old make more sense then 1/2 the stuff I read here and things that go on in our sport.


-george
 
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