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Thanks for posting. Too bad the flyers, fictional time cards, and car swapping are playing into this thing, but I suppose no system is perfect.
:-|
 

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rallymeister

Hey Lurch it probably did not affect you at Maine but did you notice the way they did the reseed at the end of the first night? We had mech. problem on 2nd stage which put us behind 3 mins. They reseeded based on overall speed factor for all stages. It put us 59th on the road on Sat. I allways thought they through out the worst stage and based it on the rest? Do you know if this is how it is going to be now? Tough to make any time when you are passing cars.

rallymeister
 

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Whenever you try to reorder 90 cars based on 5 stages (450 scores!), there are bound to be situations that slip through the cracks. It is the responsibility of the co-driver to find these when they affect his car and bring them to the attention of the Series Manager. During the 20-some years I was an active competitor, I never once "got screwed" by a restart once I made the situation known to those with the power to change it.
 

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>I never once "got screwed" by a
>restart once I made the situation known to those with the
>power to change it.

I was scheduled to be dead last at the Maine Forest
ClubRally, because my speedfactor had been decaying with
time since I've only been running club events. Kurt Spitzner
caught this, found me, and told me that he'd moved me up
in the start order. And that proved to be a good decision,
my speed factor went from 0.59 to 0.72 after the rally.
We only passed one, or perhaps two, cars.

Anders
 

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I had the reseed problem at LSPR last year--

DNFed the first night and then placed pretty much last on the road the second day. As a seed 4 driver, the seed 8s ahead of me had their work cut out for them watching their mirrors. We passed cars on all but the very last stage of the day -- we were typically moving so much faster and the roads were luckily wide enough that the passses were easy, but still not an ideal rally situation.

Two lessons learned:

1) My team should have pointed out the problem and looked for an adjustment.

2) The organizer should try to at least review speed factor or seed to check the re-seed. (I probably would have never considered it an organizer responsibilty until it happened to me.)

Important note: If you had mechanical problems, or other unusual delays, the organizers likely will not be aware of your situation, which puts it back on the competitor shoulders to rectify the re-seed.

Happy Rallying,
Mike
 

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Maine was just a very close race. I know Shepherd was wondering why he was so far back. When you look at the scores, there was one minute covering something like 17 cars at the end of the first day.

No, we weren't affected by it, but I do know there were some awful fast drivers back there.

It was the problem I faced when a Seed 5 and I went to STPR. They have ONE reseed based on only one or two scores. (I think at one time it was based on the first stage only.) Get a flat or have a moment, and you are passing cars, at least one per stage, the rest of the event. I wore those shoes once or twice.
 

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Massaging a reseed is the responsibility of the Steward, not the organizers. Your typical organizers won't necessarily know a seed 6 from a seed 2...no offense, that just ain't where their expertise lies. The ProRally Series Manager knows the folks who run all or most of the series. If you run only your backyard event, you can't expect him to know you're not ALWAYS that slow.

Same goes for ClubRallies...if you're from out of Division, you can't expect the Steward to know whether you just had a brief problem or you're really that slow all the time. Same goes for the situation where the STEWARD is from out of Division. Complaining about it after you've had to pass a dozen cars does no good at all...in fact, COMPLAINING about it may not help...bring it to the Steward's attention in a kindly way, and it will probably get fixed.

Speed factors should help this decision, but you may have had a small problem and fixed it, or you may be soldiering to the finish with a busted car. No way to tell unless you bring it up. Stewards, despite what they may tell you, aren't omniscient. :)

Bruce
 

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When Will It Be Official?

When will the official SCCA web page for seeding be updated? The last posting there (http://www.scca.org/amateur/performance_rally/car-seed.html) doesn't reflect Leon's move to Seed 1 after Pike's Peak.

It's really cool that Rally-America has taken on so much of the SCCA's responsibilities--we need all the volunteer help we can get.

Thanks!

[hr]

[p align=right]John Dillon
John @ WidgetRacing.com
www.WidgetRacing.com
 

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RE: When Will It Be Official?

I'm a rookie and in two events I don't think I've had a stage yet where I didn't catch at least one car. I've just recieved my first speed factor after Maine and I hope it helps the situation. It's frustrating to catch on car on stage and struggle to get by, especially if it's the same car over and over!

Nick Collins
#972 VW GTI
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So how does that explain LSPR last year?

How was known seed 4 driver placed almost last on the road with many seed 8, 7, 6, and 5 drivers in front?

I don't want to make a big issue of history -- I consider this my lesson learned and I am not blaming anyone.

In the end the drivers/co-drivers need to look out for themselves.

Mike
 

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RE: When Will It Be Official?

How could you be passing the same car over and over?

In the US and Canada, once you have passed a car you stay in front of the car.

I think Cherokee and maybe Wild West would run under FIA timing rules were you position on the road remains the same even if you pass cars on stage (and I could be wrong about that too).


Just checking,
Mike
 

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RE: When Will It Be Official?

There is no reason under standard SCCA timing that you should keep catching the car in front of you. If you came across the finish line on the same minute, discuss with the other driver and move ahead of him when you check into the next ATC. If you were right on him, but still on seperate minutes (he got a 8:07:58 and you got a 8:08:01), you can still likely change in the control if you ask the control workers. Mark Utecht and I did this on one stage at Maine.

Now if you are catching a car a stage and they are different cars, that is another problem. You should feel VERY fortunate you did it at a damp rally. Doing it in minute-long dust is one of the most dangerous things I have ever had to do. It is one of those issues that comes with newer fast drivers who haven't established a SF or attained a seed yet. You can tell stewards you're faster than those around you, but nobody listens until you catch a few cars.

Here is another disturbing issue...I have seen competitors who have earned their SF in ClubRally get positioned ahead of ppl with the same SF that they earned in ProRally. For example, if I earned my SF as a percentage of the hot driver in my region at my local ClubRallies, and you earned your SF against Lovell or Higgens, I would expect that the National SF would preside over the Divisional one. It is a case where two people with the same SF are NOT THE SAME SPEED. Doesn't matter what class they are in either, imo. There are certainly some GN cars capable of beating on some other Open cars, there are G2 cars that are faster than other G5 cars and there are P cars that can spank a lot of G2 cars...and G5 for that matter.

Like I said, it ain't perfect, but no system is, that I have heard proposed. I think it is hardest for the unknown driver who is really, really fast. Dust sucks.
 

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RE: When Will It Be Official?

To clarify my first post on this subject, here are some places that I see need improvement:

Flyers: They are not all caught. A single minute flyer can really reduce a SF. I understand that they drop the fastest and slowest stage, but I see at least one instance on there where flyers are helping the driver's rank.

Fictional time cards: When a competitor DNFs and then later hands the officials his/her score cards "for speed factor purposes only," please make sure they only submit cards for stages they actually completed. If Competitor X goes out on stage 4 and has cards for 4, 5, and 6 in his packet, make sure he/she doesn't fabricate scores for 5 and 6. I see at least one instance of this. Not telling who.

Car swapping: I'll give this one away. Look at Pop's factor. Even HE doesn't want to be in front of Malik, Hourt, Jeremy, Hurst, Tad, Bailey, Gail, and others. Maybe I earned that for him at Sno*Drift when I jumped in his car? ...and didn't change the car numbers? Hmmm.
 

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RE: When Will It Be Official?

I didn't think SF coud be determined (other than indirectly by seed) in a Club Rally. My Club rally SF would be like .98?

The SF system seems to reward particicpation in Pro events, I guess that's OK, if your spending the time & money, you deserve it.

If you're fast but run only club events, you'll have an un-naturally low SF. When SF is used in Club start orders, I'm behind some people I catch in less than 5 miles. Passing is not much of a hassle with the mustang, any car your catching looks like going 30mph in reverse on the straights. Passing is a worse situation for a good driver in a low powered car. I've been there with my G2 cars in the past, it can be really frustrating.
 

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RE: When Will It Be Official?

I guess I only passed the same car twice. Once before lunch and once after lunch, I don't know how it worked out that way. I am glad it was a damp event. It's hard enough trying to pass someone each stage when I CAN see what's ahead. I caught someone once at Maine in a dusty section and it sucked. As soon as we got back into the trees where it was damp it was fine again, but that short section of dust made me VERY happy for the rain that had fallen.

Nick Collins
#972 VW GTI
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
RE: When Will It Be Official?

>When will the official SCCA web page for seeding be updated?
> The last posting there
>(http://www.scca.org/amateur/performance_rally/car-seed.html)
>doesn't reflect Leon's move to Seed 1 after Pike's Peak.
>
>It's really cool that Rally-America has taken on so much of
>the SCCA's responsibilities--we need all the volunteer help
>we can get.
>
>Thanks!
>
>[hr]
>
>[p align=right]John Dillon
>John @ WidgetRacing.com
>www.WidgetRacing.com

I don't know when the SCCA web page will get updated. I supposed they could link to Rally America for the current ones :)
In all seriousness though, they get the updates at the same time I do.
 

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RE: When Will It Be Official?

>I didn't think SF coud be determined (other than indirectly
>by seed) in a Club Rally. My Club rally SF would be like
>.98?

Your speed factor is based on the speed factor of the fastest car ON THAT STAGE. If the fastest guy at a ClubRally has a speed factor of .80, you'd have to beat him to get above that number. Speed factors are supposed to be based on ALL the accumulated stages on ALL events.

>
>The SF system seems to reward particicpation in Pro events,
>I guess that's OK, if your spending the time & money, you
>deserve it.

Yes and no...the speed factor in a Pro event will likely always have the guy who's 1.00 at the moment, so you'll be compared against him.

>
>If you're fast but run only club events, you'll have an
>un-naturally low SF. When SF is used in Club start orders,
>I'm behind some people I catch in less than 5 miles.

If this happens in CenDiv, I want to know about it! I try my best not to put anybody ahead of you that I think you'll catch easily...but sometimes that 'Stang surprises even me.

If it's happening in other Divisions, this is an example of the Steward not knowing you and the Mustang...and perhaps having a subconscious bias against RWDs with big thumping V8s. You have to bring it to their attention.

Bruce
 

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Where are they posted?

Maybe because I'm on a Mac (sometimes web pages don't loead correctly), but where exactly are the speed factors posted over at Rally america? I can't seem to locate them.
 

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being passed

I was past by Mike once.............. It was LSPR 2000. On the previous stage he had come in to the finish control close to us so I knew he was catching, I thought about offering to switch but figured he would ask, he didn't.
On the next stage it wasn't long until we saw and heard the Mustag comming up from behind. I was trying to find a safe place to move over but couldn't. I could see the muscle car in my rear view and really didn't want to hold him up. The thing that was the most Intimidating for me was that his co driver used a red light that hung from the A pillar and everytime I would look in my rear view I would see it. It was like have a cop on your tailWith the red light on. Finaly the road got wide and I had room............But it got wide on the left not the right and I couln't see pulling to the left to let a car go by on the wrong side of the road, it didn't seem safe. Then the road got tight and We went through A couple of quick turns but he was still there so we quickly pulled off to the right and stopped on a pile of leaves. The big Stang went by, I through it in reverse but no go. We had broken the axcel with the sudden stop on dry folliage.
Fortunately it was a heat wave, no snow and a star filled night.

Sorry if we held you up Mike. We were trying to help.
 
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