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3/14=my 42nd rally anniversary
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Lest someone read their August 2002 Sports Car Magazine (as I am at the moment) and leap to the conclusion that the members of the appeals board are being kept secret I want to announce that Pete Mathewson (Seed 7 driver and event organizer from Colorado), Jeff Becker (long-time, professional Open Class codriver) and I (Seed 3 driver and ClubRally Steward) made up the board for Pat Richard's SNO*DRIFT appeal. Bill Bradshaw presided, by the way.

I will add that with the other board member's approval I called Pat personally and shared the decision we made. We chatted about all the issues swirling around this situation and I'm confident he understands how we arrived at the decision we did and why.

Halley ...
http://www.realautosport.com
 

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oh wow how funny...
i just received and read over this this very evening...
the "court" seemed to justify their decision...
and made them selves clear to me (in reading)
as to how they came to this decision/conclusion.

damn the circumstances... that sucks...
but rules are rules...
still.. really bummed for Patrick...
he had a hell of a drive! ;)
:7 (ya know you are my heeeroooo Pat) :7
ok enough.. i wont sing for ya..

Jamie
www.subiegalracing.com
www.subiegal.com
 

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3/14=my 42nd rally anniversary
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Jamie said:
>damn the circumstances... that sucks...
>but rules are rules...
>still.. really bummed for Patrick...
>he had a hell of a drive! ;)

That's really very close to what Pete, Jeff and I said when wrapping up the appeals board conference call. I had the same feeling after this one I did following my last protest committee duty (at the MediQuick Cherokee Challenge Divisional Pro Rally in NE Oklahoma about a decade ago). Doc Shrader was the event sponsor and a competitor who had the misfortune of getting rear-ended by a local. They exceeded MPL before being cut loose from the obligatory exchanging of insurance & personal info but completed the remaining stages. Doc was the first guy I ever talked to about ProRally (circa 1974 when he was rallying a Fiat out of Enid, Oklahoma), he was driving a car he purchased from CMC Motorsports, Inc. that I delivered to him and he was sponsoring the rally so we were keen to find a way to reinstate his finish. Unfortunately, the inescapable conclusion was covered by force majeur and ruling anything else would have been plain old wrong.

Halley ...
http://www.realautosport.com
 

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>Jamie said:
>>damn the circumstances... that sucks...
>>but rules are rules...
>>still.. really bummed for Patrick...
>>he had a hell of a drive! ;)
>
Mike, I don't have the rule book open right in front of my nose but i have looked at it since this time, and it seems to me that they rules on mechanical protests state that a (approx quote)" a bond suffcient to cover the cost of disassembly and reassembly will be posted....."

When the bond was not posted, doesn't that make the protest moot at that point?

Further in protesting the legality of a transmission ratios do you understand that the "ratio" is a derived product, a numerical expression of the relationship between two or more gears?
And that in actuality the only protestable thing is actually the TOOTH COUNT.
12:24
13:26
14:28
15:30
16:32
All give a Ratio of 2:1

If you didn't tear down the trans because no tear down bond was posted, how from outside the transmission would you know the ratio was arrived at?

Earlier in the year you described a procedure of pushing the car around and looking at crank turns to wheel turns.

The "total overall gear ratio" is a product transmission ratio multiplied by final drive ratio.
In your description, by counting wheel turns, you have introduced the final drive into the calculation.

Was the final drive ratio protested in addition to the transmission?

There is a bewildering array of gear set and final drive combinations in Subarus line up which can arrive at the same product.

As an example not specifically Subaru (these are actually Ford which i know better than the Subie junk)
3.9 final drive and .92 5th gives 3.58 total reduction
4.1 final drive and .87 5th gives 3.58 total reduction
4.44 final drive and .809 5th gives 3.58 total reduction

How would one know what the gear ratio is without knowing the final drive in your described procedure?
And how would you detirmine the final drive ratio without it being protested, and the teeth counted?

What is the procedure when the whole process was botched?
I'm sure Pat, Randy Z, and John D would like to know as all three exclusions were completely screwed up.

At least according to the rules in the book.

Rules are rules, eh?













John Vanlandingham
 

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3/14=my 42nd rally anniversary
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
>>Jamie said:
>>>damn the circumstances... that sucks...
>>>but rules are rules...
>>>still.. really bummed for Patrick...
>>>he had a hell of a drive! ;)
>>
>Mike, I don't have the rule book open right in front of my
>nose but i have looked at it since this time, and it seems
>to me that they rules on mechanical protests state that a
>(approx quote)" a bond suffcient to cover the cost of
>disassembly and reassembly will be posted....."
>
>When the bond was not posted, doesn't that make the protest
>moot at that point?

May I answer this with my team manager's hat on?

Cool.

Were I in charge of a team facing the protest - as I understand it was presented last winter - I would have insisted that a tear down bond be posted before anything else happened. Obviously, that was not how it worked out. I wasn't on the protest committee, I just got to help decide how to answer the appeal. Unfortunately, the appeal's wording left us no room to delve into how the protest or inspection was handled.

>Further in protesting the legality of a transmission ratios
>do you understand that the "ratio" is a derived product, a
>numerical expression of the relationship between two or more
>gears?
>And that in actuality the only protestable thing is actually
>the TOOTH COUNT.

I've been turning wrenches since the 60s so I came to the Appeals Board conference call looking at this the same way you are John. Had I been in Pat's shoes I'd have insisted the tranny come out and the teeth be counted so there would have been no doubt regarding the ratios. I fear Pat had concerns about returning the car he rented late and/or in pieces that may have precluded pursuing that course of action, but that's just a guess on my part.

Good, bad or indifferent, the rules are the rules. Unfortunately, the appeal we were handed only asked if the Event Steward had the right to impose a disqualification given the decision already made by the Protest Committee. We could find nothing in the rulebook that would allow us to overturn the Steward's action no matter what angle from which we chose to look at things.

There certainly wasn't the slightest hesitation from anyone on our conference call when the matter of returning Pat's appeal fee was brought up, as small a concession as that may seem to be.

Halley ...
http://www.realautosport.com
 

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OK, lissen up, children. While there are many poosible ways to come up with the correct answer, there are certain answers which CANNOT be correct. The car in question yielded one such answer. You are all invited to each and every rally to volunteer your vast knowledge and assistance to registration, tech, stewardship, control operation, and, my favorite, scoring. Don't wanna? Shut up & qwitcherbitchen.
 

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>OK, lissen up, children. While there are many poosible ways
>to come up with the correct answer, there are certain
>answers which CANNOT be correct. The car in question yielded
>one such answer. You are all invited to each and every rally
>to volunteer your vast knowledge and assistance to
>registration, tech, stewardship, control operation, and, my
>favorite, scoring. Don't wanna? Shut up & qwitcherbitchen.

Amen Brotha!
 

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You are all invited to each and every rally
>to volunteer your vast knowledge and assistance to
>registration, tech, stewardship, control operation, and, my
>favorite, scoring. Don't wanna? Shut up & qwitcherbitchen.
John, there are many ways that people help rallies to happen.
you listed some, but there are others, too and they are in the currenty climate indespensible.
Some of those those things include advising which parts are the good thing and why, suppling those parts, building affordable and competitive engines and transmissions, recruitment and introduction of new members to the sport, advice on on event roles etc.

Now, you may not think these things are important, but those who have gotten help, parts and advice from me seem to appreciate it.

This is about discussion, isn't it?

So don't tell me to shut up, OK.

















John Vanlandingham
 

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Now that it is all said and done.

Was the protest filed before the start? If so was Pat given the oppurtunity to bump class into open? I'm just curious. Have the rules changed and a protest can be filed at any point?

As to the put-up or shut-up post, what is that all about? Someone asked a question and all they got was flack no explination or description. The question was a good one and deserves an answer.

Mike: Thanks for the post and your answer as to what happened with your involvement and how you would have delt with it. I think most of us agree with you from the competitor stand point.:)
 

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3/14=my 42nd rally anniversary
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
> Was the protest filed before the start? If so was Pat
>given the oppurtunity to bump class into open? I'm just
>curious. Have the rules changed and a protest can be filed
>at any point?

Sean,

The entire Appeals Court blurb can be read here - http://www.scca.org/news/fastrack/02-08.pdf There you'll find that Pat was afforded the opportunity to move to Open before the rally began but chose not to since he had no reason to believe the rental car was not GN legal. The only way a class-defining mechanical protest can be filed after the first car leaves the initial MTC would be due to extenuating circumstances (like Bryan Ackerman appearing in Salem, MO. 30 minutes prior to 100AW tech closing - technically, he started the rally classed in Group 5 with a PGT Talon! Had he finished the rally a protest regarding that car's class legality surely would have been accepted).

This thread began because I realized they'd adhered a litle too closely to the Club Racing model and left out the names of those appointed to hear the appeal. In Club Racing there is a standing Appeals Board and everyone knows their names. Rallying ain't quite there yet.

> Mike: Thanks for the post and your answer as to what
>happened with your involvement and how you would have delt
>with it. I think most of us agree with you from the
>competitor stand point.:)

No worries. I don't mind sticking my neck out once in a while for my rally family! ;)

Halley ...
http://www.realautosport.com
 

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3/14=my 42nd rally anniversary
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
>Mike, <snip>
>Earlier in the year you described a procedure of pushing the
>car around and looking at crank turns to wheel turns.
>
>In your description, by counting wheel turns, you have
>introduced the final drive into the calculation.

I defy you to produce any evidence that proves I have ever supported that sort of testing. As I mentioned in my response to your unedited post, I would do all in my power to ensure that any such protest filed against my car or that of a client's would be resolved by counting teeth on gearsets. Period.

Halley ...
http://www.realautosport.com
 
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