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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok, somebody has to be able to help me out here.

I am not "in the know". I've never been there before. I don't understand what "Start Line" means (as in, where is it). I don't understand what "SCCA Pit" means (is that service?). I don't understand what "Practise" means.

The deadline for entries is tomorrow. All I care about knowing is:

1) what is the length of each stage (so I can budget fuel)
2) what is the surface of each stage (so I can budget tires)
3) when do I have to be there (so I can make notes and also budget rooms)
4) do I need a rental car (to make the notes)
5) when do we get to service ?

Everyone I have talked to who was there last year also seems to be making assumptions, because it is different, but I dont have any facts. I've called the organizers, they are not 100% up on what my questions mean. Like if I ask "When can we do recce ?". "You mean practise ?". "Well, no, I mean, when can I drive up the road to check it out." "Practise is from xxx to yyy." "But is the road closed at that time." "Yes". "So when can I just make some notes." "Not after Wednesday morning". "So if I go up to make notes on Wednesday, I will be stuck up there all day because it is practise time ?" "yes". Hmmmm.

What and where do stage 1 occur ? stage 2 ? stage 3 ? what are our time constraints (i.e. do we get 'stuck' somewhere) ? Are these places also restricted access ? When can we recce them ?

Does anyone know this stuff ? I have looked at June Fasttrack, at the pphic.com supp regs. I've also read the pre-existing thread here on the hillclimb, it is still not that informative for those who aren't in the know.

Before (if) we enter, we need to know how long it will be and how much it will cost. Sorry if I sound so dumb, I just don't get comments like "Tollgate open to SCCA-Pit at Crystal Reservoir" (June Fastrack). What does that mean ? Open for service crew ? Open for use to recce it ? Or "Tollgate to Halfway Picnic". What does that mean ? etc. etc. I know it is last minute but this stuff should be easier to find out...

I've seen a map of the whole place, I understand there are mile markers, maybe someone with a breakdown of stage vs. mile markers and also mile points of supposedly "known" places would help...
 

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Pat - Here's what I know:

There are maps on the Rally-America web site for each of the stages.
The mileages are rough, but within 1 mile.
I figured them out from Delorme and some prior knowledge.

Stage 1 - Start Line to Glen Cove - 4.9 miles
Stage 2 - Tollgate to Halfway Picnic Grounds. - 8.56
Stage 3 - Cove Creek to Summit - 5.91
Stage 4 - Race to the Clouds 1 - 12.42
Stage 5 - Race to the Clouds 2 - 12.42

Yes you can recce the whole hill as many times as you like.
When you get to the tollbooth at the start of Pikes Peak Highway you tell them you are with the race and they let you go up the hill. Can't recce in the rally car though.

June 24, Tollgate opens to SCCA-Pit at Crystall Reservoir means your crew can get through the gate to setup for service at the Crystal Reservoir.

June 25, Service at Tollgate then Service at Cove Creek

June 2, Service at Start line.

Because they have many different classes entered in the hillclimb they have practice for those folks on different parts of the hill at different times. The ProRally stages are what we ran for practice last year, except for the tollbooth run. The tollbooth run is all asphalt.

Use the schedule from the SCCA not the PPIHC as PPIHC doesn't know about rally and we don't get practise this year.
 

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I'm with you, Patrick. I've tried to get answers but everyone presumes you have run it before and you should know these things. Well it's the first time for me and I just don't know what the schedule is. It talks about practice, but my driver tells me that it may not be for SCCA folks. And recce? If you haven't done it by now, it seems like we are not going to get a chance. Good luck.

Bill Montgomery
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
thanks allan,

so you've made the maps yourself, which means it should help me quite a bit ! Are they correct ? (had to ask !)

so looking at them

ss1 is the first bit of ss4/ss5 (last 1/2 gravel?)
ss2 is from the 'tool booth' and includes the first half of ss1, ending before the end of ss1 (all tarmac)
ss3 is from just beyond the end of ss1 to the summit (the second half of ss4/ss5) (all gravel)
ss4 and ss5 are from the beginning of ss1 to the end of ss3

and there is a portion in the middle of ss4/ss5 which we will have never done at speed

and all of these stages are inside of the 'tool booth',
and service looks on the map to be near the start of ss1 ??

I know we can recce as many times as we like, but I dont understand when that is actually possible... during next week...

is our 'practise' our recce ? Doesn't the practise actually happen after stage 1/2/3 ?
 

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Nope - ProRally Recce can be done anytime the hill is not closed. You can start today if you'd like. Best to do it before Wednesday noon as the schedule gets a little tight from there on.

Yes I made the maps myself and they are not official, but pretty close. I had to guess at the actual start and finish line positions.

Hey - No fair editing your post while I'm typing mine! :)

The traditional hillclimb is stage 4 & 5.

SS1 is roughly the 1st half of the hillclimb.
SS2 is brand new for everyone as they don't race that section. Narrow twisting asphalt with curbs and sand on the road.
SS3 is roughly the upper half of the hillclimb.

There is a little section on SS4 & 5 that you don't get to race on prior to SS4. It's not very far. If you wnat my notes from last year on that section I could send them to you.

Practice: Other competitors get to practice the hillclimb on different sections of the hill. ProRally competitors are running the sections as stages to give the whole event a bit more of a rally feel. Practice in the PPIHC eye's is closed road competition car practice. We only get to recce in street cars when the hill is open to normal everyday traffic and we do not get practice in competition cars.
 

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>I know we can recce as many times as we like, but I dont
>understand when that is actually possible... during next
>week...
>
>is our 'practise' our recce ? Doesn't the practise actually
>happen after stage 1/2/3 ?

Practice for all the hill climb classes runs from 5ish untill 10ish in the morning every day during race week.

During race week the the road from toll booth (entrance) to the summit is open the public from about 10am untill around dusk. You can do unlimited recce during this time. Just show your PPIHC badge and you get let onto the hill.

Last year SCCA practice was Thursday and Friday morning. This year I don't see any SCCA "at speed" practice scheduled, just the SS1/2/3 on Thurday and Friday mornings.

SS4/5 is the hill climb proper, with SS4 being the run that counts for the PPIHC itself.

Does this help?

Dave

Edit to SS4/5
 

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Only 5 stages that I know of. ;)
SS4 & 5 is the traditional hillclimb with only SS4 counting for the hillclimb record books.
 

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Pat:

Practice is a scheduled time (not sure what the schedule is) that you run in your rally car, with your co-driver (I have seen teams run up the hill with a tech and a laptop to do mapping)

Recce is done in a street car while the hill is open to the public, pretty much all day long, you will not get stuck due to some practice times (as they happen in the early hours like 5am to 9am). Figure wedensday and thursday during the day for your recce (there is quite a bit of traffic on the road), you will find it a pretty easy road to memorize anywas after a few passed (couple of tricky areas).

Good luck, wish I could be there.

-george
call me if you have any questions I will asnwer to the best of my knowledge
 

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Most of what you want is in June Fastrack p. F-102. I think you'll find the rest at the PPIHC site. http://ppihc.com/competitors/ has course maps with landmarks indicated. Hillclimb people seem to think that it should be obvious to everyone what they are talking about. If you need to talk to someone about The Hill, call Cindy Krolikowski. She's been there more recently than I.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
thanks for the posts guys. As I said I've read the fastrack and the pphic web site. Some key pieces of information are missing from both (i.e. when does the hill open for 'normal' i.e. two way traffic).

How would one accomplish recce behind a camper van I have no idea...

are you allowed to access the hill at 1AM for example ?

where is service ? are we allowed to 'practise' when the other guys are practicing ?

etc. etc.
 

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No, you can't practice at 1am... only between about 10am and when the mountain closes at about dark.

You can only recce in a regular street car and traffic is very slow... and there's hikers, and two way traffic. It was easier last year when we had 2 practice sessions (one on bottom half, this year's stage 1 and the second on upper half, this year's stage 3), but no practice this year, I guess.

I seriously doubt you can practice with other classes, these are their qualifying sessions... most of the year there are times the mountain is available for rent, but I think that time has passed.

J.B. Niday
www.nidayrallysport.com
 

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Pat, I haven't seen anyone from Colorado post so here goes. This information varies frmo 2 months old to yesterday.


You will be looking at approximately 45 (plan on 55 because I may have one stages length wrong) stage miles and probably something like 40 transit miles, 35 of those transit miles will be basically coasting down hill after stages 3 4 and 5, 4 and 5 will be on satruday and as a spectator I would encourage windows down high 5s, you will see fans lining the road to cheer and slap hands with you as you go down, its great fun!


There will be a mix of tarmac and hard packed dirt and gravel. 2 months ago I was told by a friend that lives 10 minutes frmo the toll gate that it is already paved to Glen Cove, I would take this to be truth as it had been stated that due to erosion a 3 year pave it all plan would be put into effect after last year, it sucks, we don't like it but they did it anyway. That said I'd wager about 60% of the stage miles will be gravel worn, not that great but fairly smoothe underneath the loose stuff tarmac the rest should still be dirt.


If you look up the fast track service times are listed, only ones I can remember off hand are on saturday, you should be able to work on the car up till your class is called to the road to line up and run. You will make a pass up the hill in the morning, come down, have service then go back up. The other services are listed in the itenerary that was in fast track, someone can post this I am sure.


No recce in the rally cars and as many passes as you want.




If it were me, and its not, I'd try to get here on Tuesday, as tech is wednesday, if you are looking for something to do rally wise after tech e-mail me, really seriously though, it should be fun and cheap.


If you want to get a feel for the roads at speed and can't get a good enough idea there will be rally type cars runnign in the PPIHC class practices, people with tickets, press, and I believe competitors can watch the practice sessions, it might give you a better idea of what to expect, but plan on nothing road and weather wise. In colorado being sunny and 70 one day at 14,000 feet does not mean it won't snow 8" the next day, it happened last year, and can happen at any given point, we get rapidly changing weather that can get very severe (Tennis ball sized hail in denver just last week (about 80 miles north of PP tho)).




Pat this is the best I can do from my girlfriends house, I'll be home tomorrow night and can get you more information from there and can put you intouch if need be with some of the Colorado Hill Climb guys and some of the local rally guys that might give you better information. E-mail me at kevin.hahn AT colorado.edu and I will do what I can for you.



Hope this helps
 

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Most of the posts are incorrect, if you need to know how this really works you can call me. I have been on the Peak for the last 15 years and live 30 minutes away.

Todd Moberly
719-647-9192
 

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Todd, sorry I missed you on Saturday, you guys left before I got off of work at Bandi and was able to come over and say hi at the flat4 tent, missed you Sunday as well, hope all is well with the car though.


Just curious if the most of the posts are incorrect part was referring to my post or not. I need to know if I have managed to put together wrong information or not as I have an article 3 days from printing and if there are errors I need to fix them ASAP. I don't know if they really did pave to Glen Cove but based on what was said last year and who told me that it was paved I'm sticking with it, although I suppose they may have paved higher.


See you at Hatch's I suppose.


Kevin "the stupid kid that RallyCrosses the Black Nissan" Hahn


FWIW, If pat had e-mailed me I would have put him intouch with you, Moody, and the Keeney tribe, maybe Ron too.....


PS best of luck to your dad come race day.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
gee I guess I am not the only one confused !

my point is, in addition to the fastrack june and the pphic docs, where is the additional information ? where does it say you cant go out at 1AM ? where does it say we can practise (or not) with the big boys ? where does it say that the roads will be open for recce (or not) ? where is the schedule for 'downloading' after our runs ? Can we keep going up and up after stages 1/2/3 for example to get more recce ? or 'practise' ?

I'm not trying to be a pain, I just want the goods. I don't think I am the only one not 100% sure about what will be going on. If anyone has any info, can you post it ? More 3rd hand references to non-official information is still 'sktchy' even if it is reputable. In any case, Todd I left you a message. Is there a seperate organizer liason for the "SCCA ProRally" ?
 

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>gee I guess I am not the only one confused !
>
>my point is, in addition to the fastrack june and the pphic
>docs, where is the additional information ? where does it
>say you cant go out at 1AM ? where does it say we can
>practise (or not) with the big boys ? where does it say that
>the roads will be open for recce (or not) ? where is the
>schedule for 'downloading' after our runs ? Can we keep
>going up and up after stages 1/2/3 for example to get more
>recce ? or 'practise' ?
>
>I'm not trying to be a pain, I just want the goods. I don't
>think I am the only one not 100% sure about what will be
>going on. If anyone has any info, can you post it ? More 3rd
>hand references to non-official information is still
>'sktchy' even if it is reputable. In any case, Todd I left
>you a message. Is there a seperate organizer liason for the
>"SCCA ProRally" ?



Here is the main problem, the PPIHC organizing staff is small, and worse then that, they are very set in their ways. This event went on for something like 79 years, plus some for wars, without having to deal with the SCCA. The website is not that great, the lay out of information is not that great either.


The number one thing that says you can't go out on the mountain is some fereaking huge steele pipes that are at the toll gate. This is a tool road and when it ain't open, it ain't open...

I spent a week gleaning information from first hand sources for an article, and nothing I would say is concrete but its close. Todd's dad Rod (co-driver too) has been running on PP for a long time, he can give you the general rules. I'll do whatever it is that I can to help any competitor get information, but it wont be official.


PPIHC and the hill climbers do things one way, the SCCA does them another, this is a cooperative learning experience and hopefully we have enough rally people here in CO that can get anyone the needed information.
 

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Uhh, aren't the "organizers" required to post "supplemental regulations" that contain the answers to all these questions?

Or is this event immune from normal SCCA procedure?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Hey guys dont get me wrong - I am not trying to criticize or whine about this or that or whatever or expect that the event which is special and RIGHTFULLY SO needs to be any other way. I just want to know whats going on so I can make a decision as to how much its going to end up costing, and who I need to be there and for how long etc. and waste the least amount possible (people's time, hotels, tires, rentals if required etc. etc.).
 

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The info from Al, Dave, George, Joe, JB,and Kevin is good and correct.
and Glenn's question about supp's for the event is a good one as well.
(hey - I had to ask how to get to the hill two years ago).

Kevin hit the nail on the head when he said it was a small organizing team (PPIHC) and it was very much a matter of "That's the way we've always done it"


I'm sure the first thing you would/will say is that "THIS IS NOT A RALLY !!" - And you would be absolutly correct!
- It is a expensive autocross. (x5 this year).
We are the guests at this event (part of a HillClimb series) I understand

PPIHC is a very different animal for us (as we rallists are for the hill- I'm sure) - There is still a large group that does not understand why a codriver is needed- None of the Vahsholtz or Unser family has used one!

As the Kurt Spitzner explained to me last year- SCCA's job was to bring us to the hill. (See ya at the top this year Kurt?)
at the rookie meeting two years ago I thought Phil Layton was going to have kittens when he was told codrivers did not wear nomex gloves.
(you have to wear all the gear going DOWN the hill as well).

As for planning- I know Jimmy, Al, Heidi, Doug, Scott P. and I will all be there Sunday or Monday. So we will be there a whole week.

- Jeff Secor
[email protected]
 
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