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Premium Member
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1,570 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Co-drivers one and all,

Please join us for our seventh FREE co-driver conference call.

Date: Tuesday July 28th
Time: 6 p.m. Pacific / 7 p.m. Mountain / 8 p.m. Central / 9 p.m. Eastern

Dial in: (218) 339-4600
Code: 989102#

Please bring up topics specific to the co-driver (e.g. rules, differences in procedure, challenges, driver feedback, event feedback, general thoughts).

Proposed Agenda:

1. Past events debrief:
- Idaho Rally (Jul 9-11)
- NEFR (Jul 17-18)
- Pikes Peak International Hill Climb (Jul 19)
- Nemadji Trails III (Jul 25)

2. Upcoming events:
- X Games 15 (Aug 2)
-
Galway-Cavendish Forest Rally (Aug 8)
- Rallye Lac-aux-Sables (Aug 15)
- Ojibwe Forests Rally [Paul Bunyan's Ride / 10,000 Lakes] (Aug 28-29)
- Gorman Ridge Rally (Aug 29)

Cancelled:

- Rally West Virginia (Aug 7-8)
[lack of entries]
- North Nevada Rally (Aug 8) [date change forced, road restrictions, ultimately lack of entries]
- Bighorn Rally (Aug 16) [roads denied, no other road options available at short notice]

3. Novice co-driver Q&A session. Passive listeners welcome, however novice co-drivers are actively encouraged to participate and ask questions. Please feel free to ask any questions you want, even if they seem basic

4. MaxAttack feedback

5. Co-driver tips / techniques to help the driver keep the car on the road
e.g. from Kim: "personally I'd like to chat with any co-drivers who might have gotten wide at 1.72 miles into Stage 11 at NEFR...note read L5+ Stay Out (Rox) >4+/Cr. There were two HUGE boulders in that underbrush! This little gotcha caught a half dozen cars out including Block. We suffered terminal rear suspension damage and Shindle went over with Matt Bushore. I just want to chat about the note and discuss with others so similar miscalls don't happen in MY future! Yeah, pretty detail-y, but my interpretation is that it was a co-driver issue (we recce'd didn't we?)".

6. Clarification on when you are, and more importantly when you are NOT, allowed to work on or service your car (please see reply #6 below: http://www.specialstage.com/forums/showpost.php?p=317212&postcount=6)

7. Any other topics

8. Date for next conference call (4th Tues = Aug 24th)

Additional co-driver related agenda items welcome. PM me or post in this thread and I'll update the proposed agenda.

Request: Please be considerate i.e. NO calls from noisy places e.g. bars, sports venues etc. as it ruins the call quality for everyone else.

If you can't make it, you can always read the meeting minutes when posted after the call. And if you have questions, feel free to submit them ahead of time, and you can read the responses in the meeting minutes too. Also, please switch fax machines on shared / party lines off.

Please help spread the word. You may learn something here. You may be able to help others learn something here. Whether you already are, or plan to be a co-driver, there's a good chance a great deal of collective wisdom (well, at least, of the rally co-driver variety) can be found here.
 

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Left seat and not British!
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785 Posts
Piers,

Thanks for posting. I would add a line item for MaxAttack (since it has been a key portion of both Idaho and NEFR)...

And personally I'd like to chat with any co-drivers who might have gotten wide at 1.72 miles into Stage 11 at NEFR...note read L5+ Stay Out (Rox) >4+/Cr. There were two HUGE boulders in that underbrush! This little gotcha caught a half dozen cars out including Block. We suffered terminal rear suspension damage and Shindle went over with Matt Bushore. I just want to chat about the note and discuss with others so similar miscalls don't happen in MY future! Yeah, pretty detail-y, but my interpretation is that it was a co-driver issue (we recce'd didn't we?).

Thanks!
 

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'is the engine bogging?'
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429 Posts
and maybe we can discuss the magic quarter mile that caught out two Mustangs at Nemadji Trail 3 (and was where we blew the engine last year) - what is it about that spot!
 

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[email protected] -> Magnetic Tree
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438 Posts
Rules/Procedural interpretations to discuss:

"Working" on the car once you have checked into the ATC when the stage has been delayed.

Ditto for "turn-around" stages where there is no official ATC and the control zone is not clearly defined.
 

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Left seat and not British!
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785 Posts
Seems like there's TONS of stuff to talk about!

Hear everybody tomorrow nite...8:00CDT
 

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Premium Member
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1,570 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
and maybe we can discuss the magic quarter mile that caught out two Mustangs at Nemadji Trail 3 (and was where we blew the engine last year) - what is it about that spot!
Hi Rob,

I think just bring this up when we do the debrief of Nemadji Trails III

Rules/Procedural interpretations to discuss:

"Working" on the car once you have checked into the ATC when the stage has been delayed.

Ditto for "turn-around" stages where there is no official ATC and the control zone is not clearly defined.
Hi Tim,

I'm not sure this is ambiguous / open to interpretation.

Per R-A Rulebook:


7.5.A.6 All controls, (i.e., Observation Controls, MTCs, Arrival with Start
Controls, Finish Controls, and Regrouping Controls) will be indicated
by means of Rally America approved signs. A Control Zone is
defined as being from 100' prior to the Clock sign or flying finish, to
100' after the last manned portion of the control, unless indicated
otherwise by Control Zone signs (illustrated in Appendix 2).

7.5.A.7 All control zones are considered Parcs Fermé (refer to Article 7.5.I).
No servicing of the rally vehicle is permitted in a control zone, except
the cleaning of windows and lights is authorized, providing this act
does not hinder the operation of the control or prevent you from
starting on your assigned minute. As an example, the opening of
your hood or trunk would be considered servicing. Competitors will
be considered to be in the control zone the moment they check into
the control, whether or not their car is within the physical boundaries
of the control zone.

Per NASA RallySport GRRs for Rallies:

2.17.3 Control Check-In Procedure
The check-in procedure begins at the moment the car passes the
time controls area entry sign or when competitor hands in a time
card.

2.17.7 Control Zones
At a special stage, the area from the first yellow sign to 160 feet
after the last sign of both the start and finish control is considered
a Control Zone. If Control Zone signs are present, their location
supersedes the aforementioned 160 foot distance. A control zone
is considered Parc Fermé and servicing is prohibited. Competitors
are allowed to clean lights and windows as long as it does not
affect the operation of the control or their readiness to start the
stage.

Once a crew has checked in, their vehicle is considered within the
control regardless of the vehicle’s physical locations.

Per CARS GCRs & RRs:

VI.A.5 All control areas (i.e. all the areas between the first yellow warning signal and the final beige sign with three transversal stripes) are considered as parcs fermé and no repairs or assistance may take place within the control area.

Summary:

U.S. (R-A & NASA): Once car is physically inside a control zone OR the team has already checked-in, the team is subject to penalties for servicing.

Canada (CARS): Only when the car is physically inside a control zone (regardless of whether the team has already checked-in or not), the team is subject to penalties for servicing.

Sidenotes:

1. I personally think the U.S. system is fairer, since in the event of a delay and resulting back up inside an ATC control zone, a team just outside the control zone has the possibility of extended service not permitted by the team immediately ahead of them that is just inside the control zone.

2. The CARS system is obviously easier to monitor/police by rally officials. The U.S. system, in cases where potential servicing infractions outside the control zone are dependent on whether the team has already checked-in or not, relies somewhat on teams monitoring/policing each other.

Will add to agenda for discussion though.
 

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Dramamine is for DramaQueens
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4,813 Posts
Co-drivers one and all,
Please join us for our seventh FREE co-driver conference call.
I can't make these calls, as much as I'd like to.
2. Upcoming events:
- Bighorn Rally (Aug 16)

Bighorn has been CANCELLED

6. Clarification on when you are, and more importantly when you are NOT, allowed to work on or service your car
Just to mix it up a bit, the CARS rule only applies to the physical control zone.
 

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Registered
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94 Posts
Notes from Co-driver Call

Co-driver conference call - minutes

1. Past events debrief:
- Idaho Rally (Jul 9-11) - excellent event, great roads with a lot of grip, average speeds on fast roads were (estimation) 75 mph, roads held up to multiple use, timing/scoring was best ever seen - Gibeaults did a good job, 300+ spectators at jump - people on stages, watching corners, schedule/time controls could use improvement, all service in/out were labeled as MTCs, route book did not show control locations, double-sided stage notes.

* It is very rare to get unsolicited feedback from competitors so if you have comments, please take the time to write and document your ideas and sent it to the organizer.

- NEFR (Jul 17-18) - canceled 2 stages b/c lack of ambulance, one corner (over crest, tightens over dirt pile, large boulders) took out multiple cars - what could have prevented it? paying closer attention to turn during recce should have had a single caution or notation re: off-camber, possible mistake by P. Lahm when writing notes (?), event appeared up to RA standards, organization appeared to be disheveled but managed to pull things together on Saturday (Friday was long/delayed/etc.), there was confusion over a transit was a recce pass (?).

(e.g. from Kim: "personally I'd like to chat with any co-drivers who might have gotten wide at 1.72 miles into Stage 11 at NEFR...note read L5+ Stay Out (Rox) >4+/Cr. There were two HUGE boulders in that underbrush! This little gotcha caught a half dozen cars out including Block. We suffered terminal rear suspension damage and Shindle went over with Matt Bushore. I just want to chat about the note and discuss with others so similar miscalls don't happen in MY future! Yeah, pretty detail-y, but my interpretation is that it was a co-driver issue (we recce'd didn't we?)".) - see above

- Pikes Peak International Hill Climb (Jul 19) - long event due to practice days, early practice times, great event, gloves are mandatory (full safety equipment), 3 practice runs on stage - based on whomever is ready to go, race up & down before next vehicle is released, practice done by class groups for lower/middle/upper sections and rotate by day, if wanting to make recce notes - do it in advance (before event practice opens) and use practice runs to clean up notes, used some video to assist w/ notes (in rental car after practice was complete). Next year road will be paved.

- Nemadji Trails III (Jul 25) - several DNFs, roads are clay & gravel, road surface changes through-out the stages, rained a lot this year, run as a one-day event, great first event for novice competitors, 12 competitors started this year.

2. Upcoming events:
- X Games 15 (Aug 2) - no co-drivers at this event!
- Galway-Cavendish Forest Rally (Aug 8)
- Rallye Lac-aux-Sables (Aug 15)
- Ojibwe Forests Rally [Paul Bunyan's Ride / 10,000 Lakes] (Aug 28-29)
- Gorman Ridge Rally (Aug 29)

Cancelled:
- Rally West Virginia (Aug 7-8) - canceled due to lack of entries
- North Nevada Rally (Aug 8) - ordered to change dates of event (by BLM), new date had conflicts (competitors/volunteers), BLM cut road use to 50% of previous year (stage mileage cut by 50%), low number of entries, various volunteer issues, etc.
- Bighorn Rally (Aug 16)

3. Novice co-driver Q&A session. Passive listeners welcome, however novice co-drivers are actively encouraged to participate and ask questions. - no questions

4. MaxAttack feedback - topic post-poned to next call

5. Tips techniques to help the driver keep the car on the road - topic post-poned to next call

6. Any other topics - 80mph averages - how rallies deal with high speeds - RA threatens organizers w/ not being able to use roads, campaigning for changes is not likely to be successful, giving an average of 80mph for fast stages is not a useful incentive, NRS does not have rules re: maximum speeds, working with organizers to make stages safe and usable is the best option, chicanes can be put in to make a road work - Amy consults with P. Lahm to determine where chicanes should be placed on stage.

7. Date for next conference call (4th Tues = Aug 25th)
Two topics for next call: running overall vs. incremental mileages, using paper maps, rules/procedural interpretations to discuss: "Working" on the car once you have checked into the ATC when the stage has been delayed. Ditto for "turn-around" stages where there is no official ATC and the control zone is not clearly defined.

Additional co-driver/navigator related agenda items welcome.
 

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I am not here anymore
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2,798 Posts
My apologies for not being in on the call. I intended to be, but a very last minute obligation meant that I could not.

alan
 

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Faster Mabricator
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3,611 Posts
And personally I'd like to chat with any co-drivers who might have gotten wide at 1.72 miles into Stage 11 at NEFR...note read L5+ Stay Out (Rox) >4+/Cr. There were two HUGE boulders in that underbrush! This little gotcha caught a half dozen cars out including Block. We suffered terminal rear suspension damage and Shindle went over with Matt Bushore. I just want to chat about the note and discuss with others so similar miscalls don't happen in MY future! Yeah, pretty detail-y, but my interpretation is that it was a co-driver issue (we recce'd didn't we?).
Kim,

Matt and I didn't recce. We made it thru unscathed the first run of the stage but wacked a rock on the inside line the second pass while going faster than the first pass. Our notes were pure Jemba except I was adding 'flat' to crests and left and right 6's that had substantial straights following them.

Hope the in-car video works for you. Doesn't seem to play on all PCs. Turn down the volume after we roll if at work or kids are awake due to profanity.

http://www.bentmettle.com/videos/NEFR 2009.mov

Seems we didn't stay out long enough and the rock we hit which send rear of car airborne and flattened driver's rear tire. Here is another video of the corner but the rock we hit doesn't really show. It is not the rockpile pointed to in the video as that is what Block hit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH5PwVNBnCU

In these pics, we've already wacked the rock and are headed off just before the first pic so you've got to watch the incar for the whole story. Just trying to hang on here but pics do show more of the very long corner.












And Block who instead stayed too far out too fast. You can see the rock that probably flattened us on the inside, the rockpile on the outside and narrow sweet spot between.









but got away with just a spin.

Corner was off camber which was not noted, as was neither the water.

If we'd have done the recce, would have added a '!' and a 'neat' meaning keep center, no sliding, don't jump and no room for error, the 'off camber' and 'water'.
 

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Left seat and not British!
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785 Posts
MySubie.com photographer?

Who is the MySubie Photog? I went to the site, but can't find him/her. I suspect they've got a sequence of our little adventure as well?

Anybody got some contact info?
 

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codriveur
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1,385 Posts
Missed the call also 9p kids, county fair, summer... sorry.

Next call suggestions:

To item #6 in the minutes, on chicane placement I would love to see this on the next agenda just for discussion. My personal peeve is when they are placed on the back of a crest so they are blind, the rare look up does shite in my heart and nothing to lessen my pucker ... I can become so profane on this that my eye twitches :) .

If those that have seen the smaller Route Books used @ RNY could give their opinions on them, ...I usually work the rally but think they might be a nice evolution for the tulip book due to the size.

Could the page started on FB become a group purely because redundancy prevents duncery.

Respectfully submitted to whomever does the agenda.
 

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NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!!
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2,835 Posts
If those that have seen the smaller Route Books used @ RNY could give their opinions on them, ...I usually work the rally but think they might be a nice evolution for the tulip book due to the size.
I don't know what size RNY uses, but Sandblast, RTN, and Black River Stages have all been using "half-size" route books for a couple years now. They are 5.5"x8" (a normal "letter" sheet cut in half).

Here's an example:
http://linaracing.com/LinaRoute/Example-RoadBook-Car-5.5x8.5.pdf

Cheers,
Anders
 
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