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ClubRally New World Order
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organizers set the entry fee... I don't think is a new world order thing... 
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$600 for 100 stage miles over two days does not seem out of line with the other ClubRallies... Next month in CA, competitors will be paying $325 for a one day, 68 Mile Rally. It is about 25% more (OK 25.786...%) and given that it spans two days, and land use costs vary from event to event, and... I don't think that a conspiracy investigation is warranted.
I am however glad that my local rally is the lower of the 25% gap ;-)
Matt
I am however glad that my local rally is the lower of the 25% gap ;-)
Matt
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240 Posts
I am sorry..
I agree. $600 is a little too high. Seems to me a couple
of years ago Regionals were half that.
What has changed? Why such a dramatic increase in cost?
I might not feel so bad if I knew for certain that
$500 of the entry fee was going to the event costs,
such as road rental and repair, facility rental, food etc..
But I cannot imagine that it is.
I have to assume (because nobody will tell the CLUB MEMBERS
how much these events really cost and what the breakdown is) that SCCA is taking the biggest chunk of the entry fee.
Sorry to be so negative..
But this is a sport that I love, and love to do..
And it is getting ripped away from me, and many others as well.
Brian
I agree. $600 is a little too high. Seems to me a couple
of years ago Regionals were half that.
What has changed? Why such a dramatic increase in cost?
I might not feel so bad if I knew for certain that
$500 of the entry fee was going to the event costs,
such as road rental and repair, facility rental, food etc..
But I cannot imagine that it is.
I have to assume (because nobody will tell the CLUB MEMBERS
how much these events really cost and what the breakdown is) that SCCA is taking the biggest chunk of the entry fee.
Sorry to be so negative..
But this is a sport that I love, and love to do..
And it is getting ripped away from me, and many others as well.
Brian
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245 Posts
You know, I have nothing against the people who can affoard Evo's and WRX's to run ClubRallys with. However, with entry fee's like that, those will be the ONLY people who can affoard to compete. Weren't National entry fees in the $600-700 dollar range about 4 or 5 years ago? Have insurance costs gone up that much? I dunno, but this doesn't bode well for the hobbyist. I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but sheesh!
Nick Polimeni
'71 Volvo 142E (daily driver/RallyCross)
Editor, Blue Mountain Region, SCCA
[email protected]rg
www.bmr-scca.org
Nick Polimeni
'71 Volvo 142E (daily driver/RallyCross)
Editor, Blue Mountain Region, SCCA
[email protected]rg
www.bmr-scca.org
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245 Posts
>"As long as newcomers are allowed to drive high powered cars
>to start with, that's what we will be paying for."
Here's an idea that I've had for a while. Why don't we have Ski Sawmill type driving schools as MANDATORY before we turn people loose in the woods? I've taken flak for this before, (not on this forum before but by a member) but in SCCA's Club Racing you aren't let out on the track until you've been through at least two driving schools (6 hours of on track instruction/observation by instructors I believe is what they require) To me it seems absurd that one can take a 300hp car out on stages with only an hour or two's classroom instruction on controls and proper use of the OK sign. You can tell ppl to go slow all you want, but until they have a feel for where the car breaks loose and how it handles at speed, and what thier relative skill is, they have no way to judge how slow to go to be within thier abilities. I'm sorry, but no amount of experiance driving on the street can give you a sense for this. It seems like a disaster waiting to happen, and I'm wondering, why do we have to wait for the disaster before changing things? I personaly don't think that ppl should be allowed into competition until they've proven themselves competant at handleing a car at speed. I would think this is even more important in Rallying, because there are no run off areas, no gravel traps, and no fences keeping spectators well back from the cars.
And on a personal note, the reason I havn't been on the stages since Maine Forest '99 is because I totaled my car by making a judgement mistake. I thought I was within the limits of my driving abilities, but without any time to drive the car under proffessional instruction, I had no parameters to judge by, hence I wrecked the car (rather spectacularly I might add...). And I havn't been able to afford to replace it since. I was lucky, in that niether my co-driver or I had a mark on us, others might not (and have not, unfortunately) be so lucky. Stupid mistake on my part? Yes, I readily admit that... However, if we made sure that more competitors don't loose their cars early on with stupid mistakes, more would still be around the sport. I was raised with motor racing, so that's why I'm here and still active. But I'm sure we've lost a few because of these same reasons.
Flame away }>
Nick Polimeni
>to start with, that's what we will be paying for."
Here's an idea that I've had for a while. Why don't we have Ski Sawmill type driving schools as MANDATORY before we turn people loose in the woods? I've taken flak for this before, (not on this forum before but by a member) but in SCCA's Club Racing you aren't let out on the track until you've been through at least two driving schools (6 hours of on track instruction/observation by instructors I believe is what they require) To me it seems absurd that one can take a 300hp car out on stages with only an hour or two's classroom instruction on controls and proper use of the OK sign. You can tell ppl to go slow all you want, but until they have a feel for where the car breaks loose and how it handles at speed, and what thier relative skill is, they have no way to judge how slow to go to be within thier abilities. I'm sorry, but no amount of experiance driving on the street can give you a sense for this. It seems like a disaster waiting to happen, and I'm wondering, why do we have to wait for the disaster before changing things? I personaly don't think that ppl should be allowed into competition until they've proven themselves competant at handleing a car at speed. I would think this is even more important in Rallying, because there are no run off areas, no gravel traps, and no fences keeping spectators well back from the cars.
And on a personal note, the reason I havn't been on the stages since Maine Forest '99 is because I totaled my car by making a judgement mistake. I thought I was within the limits of my driving abilities, but without any time to drive the car under proffessional instruction, I had no parameters to judge by, hence I wrecked the car (rather spectacularly I might add...
). And I havn't been able to afford to replace it since. I was lucky, in that niether my co-driver or I had a mark on us, others might not (and have not, unfortunately) be so lucky. Stupid mistake on my part? Yes, I readily admit that... However, if we made sure that more competitors don't loose their cars early on with stupid mistakes, more would still be around the sport. I was raised with motor racing, so that's why I'm here and still active. But I'm sure we've lost a few because of these same reasons. Flame away }>
Nick Polimeni
Pete Morris (building "Son of CoROLLa"). Thank you for supporting Club rally. I try to keep the costs down for the competitors. I will not raise entry fees unless associated costs rise, ie, insurance, over which we have no control, but I have it on good authority that this will not happen in the near future. The more crews that keep doing Club rallies, the more we are able to keep costs down for you. Where can you get two days for less than $350? Keep coming and we'll be there for you.
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163 Posts
You guys, search around the posts on Special Stage, you will find the fees SCCA charges for insurance and sanction fees, it is going up but not that much.
What gets charged for an event is an organizer issue, not an SCCA issue. Some of the poor fools (organizers) will charge so little that the events end up costing them money and sometimes they make some money (not often).
If you think it is to high then don't go. If this is a lot and it is because there is nothing else avaliable, organize your own event and get rich!
Bradney A. Boli
Over Exposure Racing
Honda Accord #311
What gets charged for an event is an organizer issue, not an SCCA issue. Some of the poor fools (organizers) will charge so little that the events end up costing them money and sometimes they make some money (not often).
If you think it is to high then don't go. If this is a lot and it is because there is nothing else avaliable, organize your own event and get rich!
Bradney A. Boli
Over Exposure Racing
Honda Accord #311
I have to agree with Brian:
$600 is a lot of money for the entry considering the cost for the rest of the weekend.
$200 gas for the tow
$200 hotels
$200 food
At a minimum you are talking a $1200 weekend for 100 stage miles. Go to another country in North America and the total costs are half of that plus you get part of the tow fund.
I would feel a lot better if we knew where the money was going. Comments that came out of last years event were negative about the organization and running of the event and that it was setup to make money.
Tim Penasack
$600 is a lot of money for the entry considering the cost for the rest of the weekend.
$200 gas for the tow
$200 hotels
$200 food
At a minimum you are talking a $1200 weekend for 100 stage miles. Go to another country in North America and the total costs are half of that plus you get part of the tow fund.
I would feel a lot better if we knew where the money was going. Comments that came out of last years event were negative about the organization and running of the event and that it was setup to make money.
Tim Penasack
Brian said:
>I might not feel so bad if I knew for certain that
>$500 of the entry fee was going to the event costs,
>such as road rental and repair, facility rental, food etc..
>But I cannot imagine that it is.
OK, so let's break it down. (hopefully other organizers can help here, these are just my observations from working with them for a year or so)
First, the sanction fee has doubled, and insurance costs have increased.
But probably one of the largest increases has come from road rental/repairs. Oregon Trail paid in the $10-15,000 range for road fees alone.
And as more and more higher horsepower cars enter, the more road damage occurs (I can hardly throw rocks in my underpowered 2wd beater, but a turbo-charged 4wd monster can't help but create a nice groove in the road). I believe that, along with more entrants, is the main reason road fees have increased.
With increasing popularity also comes increasing scrutiny. As more landowners (and their lawyers) are aware of this use of their land, the more critical appeasing them becomes, and the SCCA has to keep landowners happy to run the event the next year.
Then there's food for entrants AND workers, a banquet hall, etc...
It all adds up.
>I have to assume (because nobody will tell the CLUB MEMBERS
>how much these events really cost and what the breakdown is)
>that SCCA is taking the biggest chunk of the entry fee.
I don't belive that's the case. The SCCA is non-profit and they are lucky to break even at each event. The local organizers (UNPAID volunteers) work their tails off to put on a quality event at the lowest possible price. If you want to know where the money goes, I suggest you attend an organizing meeting and ASK them where the money goes. It's not a big secret. No one is lining their pockets.
>Sorry to be so negative..
>
>Brian
No problem. I like conspiracy theories too, but I don't think there is one here in ClubRally. Now ProRally, that's another story... :+
Rick
>I might not feel so bad if I knew for certain that
>$500 of the entry fee was going to the event costs,
>such as road rental and repair, facility rental, food etc..
>But I cannot imagine that it is.
OK, so let's break it down. (hopefully other organizers can help here, these are just my observations from working with them for a year or so)
First, the sanction fee has doubled, and insurance costs have increased.
But probably one of the largest increases has come from road rental/repairs. Oregon Trail paid in the $10-15,000 range for road fees alone.
And as more and more higher horsepower cars enter, the more road damage occurs (I can hardly throw rocks in my underpowered 2wd beater, but a turbo-charged 4wd monster can't help but create a nice groove in the road). I believe that, along with more entrants, is the main reason road fees have increased.
With increasing popularity also comes increasing scrutiny. As more landowners (and their lawyers) are aware of this use of their land, the more critical appeasing them becomes, and the SCCA has to keep landowners happy to run the event the next year.
Then there's food for entrants AND workers, a banquet hall, etc...
It all adds up.
>I have to assume (because nobody will tell the CLUB MEMBERS
>how much these events really cost and what the breakdown is)
>that SCCA is taking the biggest chunk of the entry fee.
I don't belive that's the case. The SCCA is non-profit and they are lucky to break even at each event. The local organizers (UNPAID volunteers) work their tails off to put on a quality event at the lowest possible price. If you want to know where the money goes, I suggest you attend an organizing meeting and ASK them where the money goes. It's not a big secret. No one is lining their pockets.
>Sorry to be so negative..
>
>Brian
No problem. I like conspiracy theories too, but I don't think there is one here in ClubRally. Now ProRally, that's another story... :+
Rick
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281 Posts
JUST ASK!!!!
Everyone wants to know where the cash is going...
Grow a pair, and call the friggin organizer and ASK THEM. Don't complain on the web, do something. If the organizer doesn't have a good answer, don't run the event. I don't know any organizer willing to hand out budget sheets for their event, and I sure won't... after all, it is my arse on the line (and my house, and car) not yours, until that changes (or it is a regional run event, for which you CAN get a budget shhet for) you'll get the general take on it... Road use fees are steep in some places...
Everyone wants to know where the cash is going...
Grow a pair, and call the friggin organizer and ASK THEM. Don't complain on the web, do something. If the organizer doesn't have a good answer, don't run the event. I don't know any organizer willing to hand out budget sheets for their event, and I sure won't... after all, it is my arse on the line (and my house, and car) not yours, until that changes (or it is a regional run event, for which you CAN get a budget shhet for) you'll get the general take on it... Road use fees are steep in some places...
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1,629 Posts
Regarding how much goes to the SCCA, they get $71.00 per car in insurance fees, and they get $275.00 deposit plus $15 per car for entries over 10 cars as a sanction fee, plus they get $5.00 per car for the ClubRally tow fund, so figure, out of that $600.00, about a minimum of $100.00 is going to the SCCA. Note that insurance rates for rally are substantially greater than other events. Check out the rates at: http://www.scca.org/interactive/2002RateSheet.pdf
Now, there are a lot of other costs associated with putting on a rally, ranging from banner tape to radios to computers to route books to staff training and meals etc, etc. A complicated Coefficient 3 is a lot more than a simple Coefficient 2. Road fees can take up a huge bite of the money. Figure of 70 car event (the maximum in a coefficient 3 club rally) Figure road use fees of $10,000.00 (not extraordinary for the forest service to charge). That adds another $142.00 per entry. So now the money is slowly being eaten away.
$600.00 may seem excessive, but for Christ's sake, you are in NEW YORK, where everything is expensive anyhow. Please be advised that you money is probably not being frittered away, nor is it lining anybody's pockets. For all the effort involved, there is very little return in organizing these things.
Just my .02
Wilson
Now, there are a lot of other costs associated with putting on a rally, ranging from banner tape to radios to computers to route books to staff training and meals etc, etc. A complicated Coefficient 3 is a lot more than a simple Coefficient 2. Road fees can take up a huge bite of the money. Figure of 70 car event (the maximum in a coefficient 3 club rally) Figure road use fees of $10,000.00 (not extraordinary for the forest service to charge). That adds another $142.00 per entry. So now the money is slowly being eaten away.
$600.00 may seem excessive, but for Christ's sake, you are in NEW YORK, where everything is expensive anyhow. Please be advised that you money is probably not being frittered away, nor is it lining anybody's pockets. For all the effort involved, there is very little return in organizing these things.
Just my .02
Wilson
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105 Posts
OK, I want to take your example a little further. Wilson, please do not take what I am about to outline personally, I am merely using your numbers as a guide.
-Based on 70 cars w/$600 entry fee, that equals $42,000.
-Based on the sanction, insurance, etc fees you listed and noted that it would be at least $100 of the entry fee that comes to $7,000.
-The road use fee you stated on $10,000.
$42,000
-
10,000
7,000
-------
$25,000 left over.
OK, would someone PLEASE explain to me how, given the rough example above, where that remaining money would go??? My experience only goes so far as assisting on organizing a RallyCross series, so I am not suggesting that I am well-versed in the budgeting required for a large rally event, I know that I am not.
Here are some other numbers to toss around while thinking. I know I am not comparing apples-to-apples here, just doing allot of wondering is all and figured I would throw this in for a very rough comparison.
Ojibwe Forest Pro/Club Rallies
The numbers below are all taken from the Early-Bird pricing list.
Pro Rally= $625
10,000 Lakes= $325
PBR= $275
BOTH Club Rallies= $625
Pro/Club combined= $900
The total stage miles for the Pro rally is 118. The Club events are 69 miles and 49 miles respectively, which equals 118.
Now, before everyone flames me to death, I know there are huge differences between these two events that I wont even begin to list.
Flame away, I now have my Nomex on x(
-Based on 70 cars w/$600 entry fee, that equals $42,000.
-Based on the sanction, insurance, etc fees you listed and noted that it would be at least $100 of the entry fee that comes to $7,000.
-The road use fee you stated on $10,000.
$42,000
-
10,000
7,000
-------
$25,000 left over.
OK, would someone PLEASE explain to me how, given the rough example above, where that remaining money would go??? My experience only goes so far as assisting on organizing a RallyCross series, so I am not suggesting that I am well-versed in the budgeting required for a large rally event, I know that I am not.
Here are some other numbers to toss around while thinking. I know I am not comparing apples-to-apples here, just doing allot of wondering is all and figured I would throw this in for a very rough comparison.
Ojibwe Forest Pro/Club Rallies
The numbers below are all taken from the Early-Bird pricing list.
Pro Rally= $625
10,000 Lakes= $325
PBR= $275
BOTH Club Rallies= $625
Pro/Club combined= $900
The total stage miles for the Pro rally is 118. The Club events are 69 miles and 49 miles respectively, which equals 118.
Now, before everyone flames me to death, I know there are huge differences between these two events that I wont even begin to list.
Flame away, I now have my Nomex on x(
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281 Posts
just a few quickies off the top of my head:
t-shirts 2500.00
trophies 2000.00
local advertising ??? 1000.00 is fair
paid EMT's 500.00
paid security 500.00
postage 200.00
organizer rooms 1500.00
route book 700.00 - 1000.00
food ?? club, lets say 3000.00
just in 3 minutes I came up with:
$12,200.00
are they doing a program, add 3000.00 for a nice one...
now we're up to $15,200.00...
I'm sure I could easily spend the other 10,000 given a few more minutes.
the above numbers are what i recall being close for PFR rounded for ease, some are drastically reduced cause this is a club event...
YMMV....
t-shirts 2500.00
trophies 2000.00
local advertising ??? 1000.00 is fair
paid EMT's 500.00
paid security 500.00
postage 200.00
organizer rooms 1500.00
route book 700.00 - 1000.00
food ?? club, lets say 3000.00
just in 3 minutes I came up with:
$12,200.00
are they doing a program, add 3000.00 for a nice one...
now we're up to $15,200.00...
I'm sure I could easily spend the other 10,000 given a few more minutes.
the above numbers are what i recall being close for PFR rounded for ease, some are drastically reduced cause this is a club event...
YMMV....
(this is completely tongue in cheek, but I couldn't help myself)
The real answer?
"The National Director of Performance Rally, the National Series Manager and members of the National Performance Rally Board will observe Rally New York for inclusion in the National ProRally Championship"
They have to put all these people up for the weekend.
On the bright side, this WAS a fun event last year and
as its first/second running (renamed as I recall?)
it had some teething troubles, but nothing worse than
any other event. 90 cars is going to be pushing it here
though, I'll guess. But it ought to be interesting.
Ed
The real answer?
"The National Director of Performance Rally, the National Series Manager and members of the National Performance Rally Board will observe Rally New York for inclusion in the National ProRally Championship"
They have to put all these people up for the weekend.
On the bright side, this WAS a fun event last year and
as its first/second running (renamed as I recall?)
it had some teething troubles, but nothing worse than
any other event. 90 cars is going to be pushing it here
though, I'll guess. But it ought to be interesting.
Ed
> Weren't National entry fees in the
>$600-700 dollar range about 4 or 5 years ago? Have
>insurance costs gone up that much? I dunno, but this
>doesn't bode well for the hobbyist. I'm not one for
>conspiracy theories, but sheesh!
>
>
>Nick Polimeni
>'71 Volvo 142E (daily driver/RallyCross)
>Editor, Blue Mountain Region, SCCA
>[email protected]
>www.bmr-scca.org
Maine Summer is $650 this year and is a prorally. Why is a club only $50 less? That's insanity. Stages were cancelled last year too, bringing the total milage way down. Who's to say it won't happen again this year?
As far as NY being expensive, you haven't seen this part of NY, have you. Very pretty, very country and I'd say very cheap. It would be a great place to live, if you could find a job within driving distance.
They didn't do tshirts to competitors last year for free, only workers.
Sorry, but I agree that the fee is way too high for a club.
My .02
Diane
>$600-700 dollar range about 4 or 5 years ago? Have
>insurance costs gone up that much? I dunno, but this
>doesn't bode well for the hobbyist. I'm not one for
>conspiracy theories, but sheesh!
>
>
>Nick Polimeni
>'71 Volvo 142E (daily driver/RallyCross)
>Editor, Blue Mountain Region, SCCA
>[email protected]
>www.bmr-scca.org
Maine Summer is $650 this year and is a prorally. Why is a club only $50 less? That's insanity. Stages were cancelled last year too, bringing the total milage way down. Who's to say it won't happen again this year?
As far as NY being expensive, you haven't seen this part of NY, have you. Very pretty, very country and I'd say very cheap. It would be a great place to live, if you could find a job within driving distance.
They didn't do tshirts to competitors last year for free, only workers.
Sorry, but I agree that the fee is way too high for a club.
My .02
Diane
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245 Posts
And Ed, for the privilage of running it this year you'll have to pay out of "BOOTH SIDES!" of your wallet!
(sorry folks, inside joke...ya kinda had to be there last year...:+ )
Nick Polimeni
(sorry folks, inside joke...ya kinda had to be there last year...:+ )
Nick Polimeni
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