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According to the rule book:

> 4. The cost of a ProRally license is $150.00. There is no credit for
> mid-season upgrades from a ClubRally license to a ProRally license.
> License fee includes a copy of the current Performance Rally
> rulebook.
>
> a. Competitors that qualify, and prefer to obtain both licenses
> shall pay an additional $50.00
>
> 5. A ProRally driver or co-driver license will allow a competitor to
> compete in ClubRally events as well as ProRally events without
> purchasing a separate license.

Why on this green earth would anyone get both licenses ($75 + $150 + $50) when a $150 Pro license covers it all?

--
JP Rowland jeremyrowland -at- mac.com
Visit my boring web page: http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland
 

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Because as a driver you have to be seed 5 to get your initial pro license. as a co driver you must have finished four co 2 or 3 clubs to get a pro license. Not every one can get a pro license at the begining of the season. It use to be you could start the season club and if you moved up you could upgrade your license mid season and get you club fee credited towards your Pro fees. I cant think of any reason to have both.
 

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More confusing illogical crap from our Administrators so as is now the routine answer for everything, never admit a mistake or an error or just plain stupidity, I can guess the answer is:
Due to an oversight or..............

due to a printing error...............

As I understand it the licences are valid from purchase date to when your UNRELATED membership expires, right?

Write a letter to PRB and a copy to Christian Edström and explain that you expect 12 months of licence for your licence fees, 12 months from when you apply.
For many people, the season doesn't start till their car is ready, and for those starting in the second half of the year, who have already paid their Membership say on 1 Jan, but buy the licence later in the year, they're getting short changed, as per the little footnote that all licences expire when the membership does.

I myself have been in this situation where a busy year has kept me out of the woods till the fall before having everything ready to rally, currently if I bought a licence on 15 Sept, and already had membership from Jan of that year, the licence would run out in 3½ months.

Solution?

At sign up, some alert soul noticed the membership is expired when presenting a valid licence would simply say "Dear, you have to fill out this to renew your membership, and where's your check?"

Pretty simple.





There is no concieveably justifiable reason that this should not be the case, it has been such for many years up to about the time some idiots dedcided that since they were incapable of securing any meaningingful sponsorship, every aspect of the entire membership and competition process would be milked for the maximum amount possible in slowly ratcheting up process.


John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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> As I understand it the licences are valid from purchase date to when your UNRELATED membership expires, right?

Last year I was waiting for my license and I called SCCA licensing and they said "we're not sending it until you renew your membership".

So I said "well, my membership expires next month, I don't have the renewal notice yet, and the license isn't valid without paid up membership anyway, so could you please send it".

They said "no".

So I had to renew ahead of time in order to get my license that would not have been valid past the renewal date anyway.

Gee, I'm glad I don't pay their wages.

Oh, wait a minute....
 

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>>
>> a. Competitors that qualify, and prefer to obtain both licenses
>> shall pay an additional $50.00
>>

I could be very wrong, but I think fee was intended to allow one to hold both Pro driver AND Pro co-driver's licenses, not Club and Pro license. This extra fee never existed until the split between driver and c0-driver's licenses in Pro, so that is why I think such is the case.

Mark Bowers
 

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>>>
>>> a. Competitors that qualify, and prefer to obtain both licenses
>>> shall pay an additional $50.00
>>>
>
>I could be very wrong, but I think fee was intended to allow
>one to hold both Pro driver AND Pro co-driver's licenses,
>not Club and Pro license. This extra fee never existed until
>the split between driver and c0-driver's licenses in Pro, so
>that is why I think such is the case.

I believe that is what is meant by the rule. However, one could hold a ProRally Codriver license and a ClubRally license (to allow one to drive in ClubRallies) or vice-versa. The interesting thing is that someone with a ProRally Driver license is not allowed to codrive without buying an extra license - this is the silliest bit of this rule... It does make some form of sense to limit codrivers from driving - some just shouldn't (like me ;-)).

Adrian
 

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>>>>
>>>> a. Competitors that qualify, and prefer to obtain both licenses
>>>> shall pay an additional $50.00
>>>>
>>
>>I could be very wrong, but I think fee was intended to allow
>>one to hold both Pro driver AND Pro co-driver's licenses,
>>not Club and Pro license. This extra fee never existed until
>>the split between driver and c0-driver's licenses in Pro, so
>>that is why I think such is the case.
>
>I believe that is what is meant by the rule. However, one
>could hold a ProRally Codriver license and a ClubRally
>license (to allow one to drive in ClubRallies) or
>vice-versa.

I don't have the rulebook handy, so I can't look this up myself. Actually, I think I brought this up in my last set of issues with the rulebook that I sent in last month (to positive comments).

Are ProRally licensed co-drivers required to have a separate ClubRally license to drive in club rally events? I have been thinking about driving one or two club events a year to give myself better perspective on the driver's point-of-view. Will I have to get an extra license now?

>The interesting thing is that someone with a
>ProRally Driver license is not allowed to codrive without
>buying an extra license - this is the silliest bit of this
>rule...

Without saying that this applies to anyone that I have co-driven for, but there are drivers who you don't want in the co-driver seat.

>It does make some form of sense to limit codrivers
>from driving - some just shouldn't (like me ;-)).

On the other hand, I think I could be a fairly good driver, but I really am more interested in co-driving and I am nowhere near as good a driver as Ross.

alan
 

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>>The interesting thing is that someone with a
>>ProRally Driver license is not allowed to codrive without
>>buying an extra license - this is the silliest bit of this
>>rule...
>
>Without saying that this applies to anyone that I have
>co-driven for, but there are drivers who you don't want in
>the co-driver seat.

I can say for certain that there are drivers that I have codriven for who should never get in the codrivers' seat ;-). However, if the licensing is based on experience, most ProRally drivers have sufficient experience that there shouldn't be a separate licensing requirement for them to codrive.

Hmm... Re-reading the rule (part 5) again, it would seem that a ProRally Codriver license would allow one to drive in ClubRallies. I wonder if that is what was intended...

Adrian
 

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So can anyone tell me why you have to have a seperate license to ProRally Co-Drive if you already have a ProRally Driver's license? Also, where does it say that you have to pay an extra $50 to get a ProRally Driver AND Co-Driver's license? My license renewal that I just sent in said this:

ClubRally: $75.00
ProRally (Driver OR Navigator): $150.00
ProRally (Driver OR Navigator): $200.00

Section 2.1.D.4.a. of the rule book says that "competitors that qualify, and prefer to obtain both (ed. ProRally and Club Rally license, as dicussus in the above 2.1.D.4. that "there is no credit for mid-season upgrades form a ClubRally license to a ProRally license." ) shall pay an additional $50.00. The next section, Section 2.1.D.5., then says that "a ProRally driver or co-driver license will allow a competitor to compete in ClubRally events as well as ProRally events without purchasing a separate license."

Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do :-\

Matt "K2" Kennedy
www.RockyRoadRacing.com
#931 Subaru Impreza 2.2 PGT - SCCA Pro/ClubRally
#44 Subaru Legacy 2.2 Production 4WD - SCCA/NER RallyCross
 

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>So can anyone tell me why you have to have a seperate
>license to ProRally Co-Drive if you already have a ProRally
>Driver's license? Also, where does it say that you have to
>pay an extra $50 to get a ProRally Driver AND Co-Driver's
>license? My license renewal that I just sent in said this:
>
>ClubRally: $75.00
>ProRally (Driver OR Navigator): $150.00
>ProRally (Driver OR Navigator): $200.00

Did the third item actually say 'AND'?

>Section 2.1.D.4.a. of the rule book says that "competitors
>that qualify, and prefer to obtain both (ed. ProRally and
>Club Rally license, as dicussus in the above 2.1.D.4. that
>"there is no credit for mid-season upgrades form a
>ClubRally license to a ProRally license." )
>shall pay an additional $50.00.

As I said, I think this section means 'both a ProRally Driver and ProRally Codriver license', and that is what the pricing implies.

Adrian
 

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>Did the third item actually say 'AND'?

NOPE! They both said "or", and I have a photocopy to prove it :p


>As I said, I think this section means 'both a ProRally
>Driver and ProRally Codriver license', and that is what the
>pricing implies.

Well, that's NOT the way it's worded ;-) Another wonderful example of what seems to be the ever increasing ineptitude of the SCCA. :+


By the way, has anyone been told WHY you need to have a ProRally Co-Driver's license to navigate if you already have a ProRally Driver's license, and WHY they feel they need to charge you almost as much as a ClubRally license to get both.


Sorry for the rant, I'm just really starting to get fed up with the apparent increase in bureaucracy, with little to no real justification or benifit to the average competitor. Plus, I've got a nasty stomach bug that since yesterday morning hasn't let me eat, drink, or sleep more than two hours at a time :eek:


Matt "K2" Kennedy
www.RockyRoadRacing.com
#931 Subaru Impreza 2.2 PGT - SCCA Pro/ClubRally
#44 Subaru Legacy 2.2 Production 4WD - SCCA/NER RallyCross
 

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>FWIW as stated above a ProRally driver's license is ok for
>club events (as a driver). I have done this.

That is obvious from the rules - what about a ProRally Codriver license?

Adrian
 

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>I just purchased my prorally codriver license. It is good
>for club events.

Does it allow you to DRIVE in a ClubRally (which was the question I asked)?

Adrian
 

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>>FWIW as stated above a ProRally driver's license is ok for
>>club events (as a driver). I have done this.

>That is obvious from the rules - what about a ProRally
>Codriver license?
>
>Adrian

Well, Section 2.1.D.5. states that "A ProRally driver or co-driver license will allow a competitor to compete in ClubRally events as well as ProRally events without purchasing a separate license."

Now, since there are no separate ClubRally driver and co-driver licenses, that would mean that you could use either a ProRally driver license or a ProRally co-driver license to drive and co-drive a ClubRally (just not at the same time ;-) ).

The thing that really gets me going, and maybe it's because I'm a teacher, is that every year the powers that be seem to make up more rules, or new parts/twists to old rules, then put out material ranging from applications to rule books that are missing important, often vital, (explanatory) information, or contain information that isn't consistent form one "official document" to another.

I know that that they did a good job of getting out this year's heavily revised rule book earlier than in previous years, but they neglected follow through and proofread/make sure that everything was ready and in place before they did so.

There's an old saying, and it's one I like, that "any job worth doing, is worth doing right the first time."

Just the view from my little corner of the world :+

Matt "K2" Kennedy
www.RockyRoadRacing.com
#931 Subaru Impreza 2.2 PGT - SCCA Pro/ClubRally
#44 Subaru Legacy 2.2 Production 4WD - SCCA/NER RallyCross
 

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>Well, Section 2.1.D.5. states that "A ProRally
>driver or co-driver license will allow a competitor to
>compete in ClubRally events as well as
>ProRally events without purchasing a separate
>license."
>
>Now, since there are no separate ClubRally driver and
>co-driver licenses, that would mean that you could use
>either a ProRally driver license or a ProRally co-driver
>license to drive and co-drive a ClubRally (just not at the
>same time ;-) ).

See my question back in Post#7, where I asked whether this was what was really intended by the rule. I assume that you are correct, but rules have been known to have been creatively interpreted...

Adrian
 

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Matt Kennedy is right; there are 2 lines on the license app form that say "Pro Rally (Driver or Co-Driver)" $xxx. However, I think the second should read "Pro Rally (Driver and Co-Driver)" $200.

I believe that the intent of the rules for separate driver and co-driver Pro licenses, was to allow for lower seeded folks to participate in Pro-Rallies as co-drivers only. This would avoid the shutting out of folks who only wanted to co-drive and did not have the time or wherewithal to move up into seed 5, or, as I like to speculate, allow "new and potentially important people" to participate in an event. (Like those with lots of $$ who might be interested in building a new team, or someone with great 'press potential', like a celebrity.) The dual fee allows one to do both.

It's clear the wording was not done as good as it could. (Assuming I understand the intent!)

Mark Bowers
 

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With the integrated seeding and the suggestions out there for integrated scoring with a footnote indicating Club or so called "Pro",
what is the party line on the motivation for the cost differences?

And I have to agree with the previous post, the rules seem to be coming forward in a hurried and USUALLY confusing form, there is something sewriously wrong with the drafting and proofing system and it is clear that there it is the result of unclear thinking or presumptions amongst those looking at drafts that they are in agreement.

Just how do these and other rules actually get thru so confusingly written?

What's the SOP?, I won't say normal process, I suspect there is no set practice.

And what does anybody else think of the hilarious "$25 value" crap regarding the SCCA magazine I myself value at ZERO.



John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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>And what does anybody else think of the hilarious "$25
>value" crap regarding the SCCA magazine I myself value at
>ZERO.

It works well in the bottom of my birdcage.
 
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