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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just a comment or two about the Canadian AWD classes:

Can anyone really think of why PGT can't include "production" cars that are made of all manufacturer's "production" parts.

Open is obviously open and one can build totally custom car for an infinite amount of cash. In principle these cars can be piloted the fastest. The spirit of open class is that if you spend the cash you can go really fast. And break alot of stuff. This class is really for people with $$$$. Seriously, and seriously not for your average Joe like myself.

Next up (or down) is group N, where, for a finite amount of cash, one can build a very fast yet class and cost controlled car. Still, these cars are fast as hell and have some pretty exotic parts. This class is still for people that have $$$ (three this time). Driven competitivly these cars still break and require a careful and significant amount of maintenence and budget.

Finally we have PGT. PGT is pretty cool for the average Joe cause you can easily build a car for $ (one) and compete to win you class at least. Well this WAS true before the GD WRX came along and started kicking a$$. But the spirit is still cool: take a car that you can get anywhere and make simple safety modifications and run the piss out of the production parts. Still with the WRX the class is still $$.

BUT now we have all these old impreza/legacy shells out there and cheap WRX drivetrains kicking around. So why would anyone spend way more money stripping and prepping an expensive STi when you can get an old subie shell and bolt in the WRX parts?? Anyway, that's not really my point.

My point is that why should the guy that wants to save a few $$ and build a production based impreza out of various model years be forced by the rules to compete in open class when, according to the spirit of the rules, the car is so not even close to that class of car? In spirit of the rules it's not even on technical par with a group N car and it is, in fact, very very very much like a PGT car. To the point where there is little performance oriented difference at all.

Now I know what the 'rules' are but rules need to evolve to what supports the best interests of the rally community. There is little to be gained for anyone with PGT rules as they are - except those who already have the WRXs.... but come on, they couldn't be annoyed by a little fair competition. God, at least it'd make things interesting.

I think by modifying the PGT rules to allow for people to mix and match all the OEM parts of a given model (specifically subaru) we will have an impoved class that meets the spirit of PGT yet also allows more flexibility to the competitors by a) removing some of the financial barriers to being competitive and b) allowing car knowledge and ingenuity to play a role in competitive.

FInally it's quite easy to police as everyone knows if it's an OEM part or not.

OK, I am sure I am missing something..........
 

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Andy, we run Open Class with a car that has been mostly a PGT/P4 car.

We actually stay in Open to save money! Being able to replace parts with non-OEM parts can often save money. It also allows you to innovate when you want to.

I don't think you'll see anyone agreeing on allowing parts built Subarus from various models competing in PGT.

Used WRX's are $10-14K here in the US now, so getting into the class with a, "real," WRX shouldn't be that prohibitive.

If you want to race for fun, which is what we do, build the car you want and race against all comers! :)

My Open class car cost significantly less than people think. Yes, it's more developed now and faster, but still a very small fraction of the cost of some other teams.

We run one open car that is NA 2.5RS with stock running gear. The only difference is that the engine was never offered in the L car it's built on and we run a Link ECU.

Anyway, we decided to run Open so we could build and run what we wanted. We've had fun doing it our own way.

Cheers! John
 

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Some people (and manufacturers) get a great deal of pleasure from building a relatively spec car and running it in Production. Whether a P3/P4 entry is cheaper would be debateable in my mind.

P4 cars have been shown to be capable of very high overall placements, so do they really need to have their reign extended to allow sti hybrids in legacy shells? I am chuckling to myself imaging the response of competitors who have already shelled out for top tier P4 cars...

I think creativity will remain in the "open" classes, where innovation is encouraged. One only needs to look at the results of people like Cassidy and Zimmer to see that you don't need to spend a lot to get to the podium in open.
 

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Faster Mabricator
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Zimmer has won P4 in the last 2 national events driving a dirt cheap legit non-turbo P4 RS. Why ruin the production classes so 'you' can go faster? Get the RS and drive it like Randy.:7
 

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RE: classless dialog

I dont like the idea of allowing more modifications to a production class...I dont like the fact that a well tuned WRX can compete in the same class as me either, but thats life. I like the RS because it is cheap for us to run and is very reliable. My goal this year is to finish every event I enter as it is my first season and I need as much seat time as possible. Im 3 for 3 so far and (touch wood) I plan to drive carefully enough to finish the 3 remaining. I dont want to tell anyone how to rally but I would suggest you look to get a car that will be reliable and not be so concerned with the speed of your car until you are driving that car as fast as can be done. Randy is proof you can run high up with a relatively tame car if you have the skill. I think your suggestion for P4 would just increase costs unnecessarily.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
>Zimmer has won P4 in the last 2 national events driving a
>dirt cheap legit non-turbo P4 RS. Why ruin the production
>classes so 'you' can go faster? Get the RS and drive it like
>Randy.:7

ok ok i get it. I know it's jsut for fun. Really I do. That's why my car is now flat as night black and some one in my house ran into it on their bicycle the other day becasue they couldn't see it in the night. Tee Hee. Ominous.

However, my point, again, it is much much cheaper to build a 93 impreza shell with a 2.5 RS engine than to by an RS. WAY WAY WAY cheaper. I can have an entire prepped early 90s rally car for what a 98 25RS is going for here in BC. And they are basically the same car.

That impreza with the link and RS running gear, in my mind, is a total production car. Randy's car is a production car. Trinder's JDM STI is a production car. My car is a production car. They are all products of Subaru and were produced on their production lines. How could they be anything else? Model varient production cars.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
>We actually stay in Open to save money! Being able to replace
>parts with non-OEM parts can often save money. It also allows
>you to innovate when you want to.

Exactly which "open class" parts save you money?
 

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Dramamine is for DramaQueens
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I'd agree that there would be some merit to allowing updating and backdating ... however that opens up a slippery slope. Allowing an STi driveline to be installed in a 93L coupe (as a non specific example) doesn't 'really' fit the spirit of updating and backdating.
You then have people searching out the 'ligter year' shells and putting the best performance engines in ... it is a way to make good cars affordable ... maybe, is it production ... not really.

I was in a position where I was considering a new shell for my rally car - and I looked at the options ... yes, there were older shells I could get my hands on, but I also found an RS that was lightly rolled for less than a used L would be - after it was repaired.
 

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Slid'n around 'n havin a ball
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Well, yes and no.
Rules for US guys in Canada are that the car meet US regs.
Kinda like $ at par.
We have a "built car" rule that means you can take a car shell and make it identical in every way to another model and the serial number doesn't matter.
Mine is a '93 with parts from many different RS's bolted to it.
Because the interior rules loosened up over the years and the roof vent was added to PGT, it wasn't so hard to make it work over when I first started to rally.
As far as making a JDM spec sti "production" - I hope that never happens for two reasons.
One - it is just wrong
Two - more broken stuff stuck out on the stages to drive around.
It looks cheap until you have to maintain it and then it is just as expensive as a new car and the wait times are longer for the stuff to arrive.
In my experience, the difference between racing in Canada and the States is - in the States you have to wait for all the protests before you know who won.
In Canada, you race.
Be realistic and pure of heart (don't abuse the rules) and have at it.
In the States, the food you had at breakfast could be protested - and probably will be if someone could find a way to write it.
If you make an RS copy out of a '93, I and I'm sure everyone else, could care less.
rz
 

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One thought on the matter - yes the current crop of WRX's has/does tend to "blow away" the field in P4 - but is that any differant that when the Talon/Eclipse or 323GTX / etc. were in their prime? (pre WRX)
Subaru decided to build a great car (the WRX) for relatively cheap - and as with any car of this nature people are turning them into Rally cars.

I have a P4 Talon that we built a year and a half ago - and it is plenty quick enough for my current skill level - plus it has finished every event it has entered (knock on wood) so far.

As for cost - I traded a wakeboard / 2 pairs of surf trunks / and a pair of sunglasses for the car - out of a junkyard - so cost really hasn't been an issue.

Build what you can afford / want - and go have fun! (with in the current rules)
(I see a lot of happy crews at the end of an event - no matter what class of car they are in)
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
well I guess this is another example of one guy with one quasi-pending rally car whining about stuff on the internet that really doesn't matter to anyone else when he could be doing more productive things - like hooking up ECU wires. Anyway, it's an interesting discussion.

If by some chance there is consensus on an "Subie NA" model varient class with some type of formalized structure then I'd be happy to fix my EJ25 and plop in back in. Maybe Trinder would too? And Keith? and a few others? Of the idle fantasies.

Randy, what's your experience with the RS 4.11 trannies? How much life can you get? What failures have you had?
 

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RE: classy

I'm on record as being for 2.2 because they are cheap, last forever and not powerful enough to break transmissions easily.
Most others are opting for 2.5s because that's what they have.
I find any transmission that's assembled by Subaru lasts a very long time.
One that I or someone else has been in may not last very long at all.
4.11s are great as built behind a 2.5NA.
rz
edit: add failures.
If you drive over a stump and crack the case so all the goop falls out, you may make as many as 6 miles, but not the 10 you need.
If you forget about shifting nicely, you will probably get away with it a few times but 2nd has a habit of going away and the loose teeth screw up a bunch of other things as you go ahead.
If you or the dealer set up a 4.44 gear, you'll get a couple rallys out of it before the loose teeth screw up a bunch of other things.
[Unless they are better at it than me or mine (respectively).]
In 90 rallys, that's it.
rz again
 

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RE: class warfare?

As owner/pilote of a "bitsa" Scooby like you're talking about, here's my take on updating/backdating parts.

The problem with updating/backdating is that once you allow SOME, how do you limit ALL possible permutations in a given class?

My car is a 94 1.8 L shell updated to RS spec with a MY 2000 2.5 motor and the 4.11 diff off a Forester of undetermined age plus other orphaned parts courtesy of the local junkyard. The L came off the wholesale lot with 112k on the clock, and now has more than 6000 stage/testing/school/rallyX miles since then. Even though the car still has its wide-ratio stock tranny, it is tough and reliable and indecently quick when driven well. It's a P4/PGT car at heart and in spirit, but runs in Open 'cuz da rules izz da rules, period.

I'd be ecstatic if I could race it against comparable cars instead of being forced to compete against dirt-spewing Open class beasties. However, if update/backdate WAS allowed in P4/PGT, where's the foothold on the slippery slope to stop people from going all the way to 2.0 turbo transplants with 4.44 drivetrains and 4-pot brake grafts from early JDM WRXes and such? The result would be Open class cars in PGT disguise. I agree with rz that this is wrong, and against the spirit of the Production-based classes.

So for now, I'll just have to enjoy spanking turbo cars wherever and whenever possible. Had a recent experience to illustrate this point, after trading stage times with a well-driven PGT WRX for two days on tarmac and gravel alike. At one control, my codriver and his compared times. When they heard ours, their codriver just went "sheet!" and climbed back into the WRX without another word. Later the driver asked me, "how you make dat thing go so fast wid no turbo?" Even though they eventually beat us by a few seconds, their reactions made the event memorable in a way no trophy ever could.

If you take the path of least financial resistance by limiting yourself to judicious upgrades that still bump you out of production class, heres the deal: You'll have to be content with aspiring to be "the fast guy in the slow car." Not a bad class concept, at that.

Cheers,

Dave G
www.lastditchracing.net


"...Embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."


PS--Check out the NASA P2 class...basically a normally aspirated Open class with all sorts of potential for high speed, low-bucks fun.
 

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RE: class warfare?

There is merit to all of the info posted in this thread..

Andy,
Yes, it would be cool to swap various generations of Subie parts on whatever shell, but it's not really Production or PGT then..It didn't roll out of the factory like that. That's the idea behind the Production classes, as good or bad as it might be. There is also much to be said for, as mentioned previosly, the fast guy in the slow car. We've had this discussion before about the 2.2 keeping up.. :)

The issue at hand, as mentioned previously, is there are way too many variables ( powerplants/drivetrains) through the years that create an unfair advantage over a stock PGT car. Dumping an RS drivetrain in an early Impreza should be allowed, but not an STi swap. Problem is, once you open that gate a flood will begin..

A good example is the car I'm currently building, it belongs in Open, not PGT.. A Brighton shell (lightest 4wd Impreza chassis) with a V4 4:44 DCCD tranny (same as yours), R180 Rear diff, STI hubs/axles, 4 pot Sti Brakes w slotted rotors, Ver 4/5/6/22b body parts, and and a hybrid 2.2 Turbo DOHC (ala 22b) powerplant with a ? turbo, and whatever intercooler winds up on it.. That's not really PGT material, way too light, way too many non stock parts, and it will not be ":Cheap looking" RZ..(LOL). It will be a proper build, and a car than can keep up with the high buck stuff once it's sorted. Granted it's not a Ver8 or US spec STi, but it will be quick and fun to drive..
It was time to make a move to a slightly more expensive, inexpensive shell that goes faster than the PGT Legacy Turbo..:D

Open is more fun anyway, you can do what you want to the car (within reason)
and nobody will #### about it. None of the "your headlights aren't stock", or "your hood scoop isn't stock", or whatever else might be the gripe of the day. That's the type of stuff that makes PGT or P classes less fun, many people are looking for things to gripe about. Non stock headlight don't make your car faster.. CRS GT has a bit more flexibility..All of the competitors have a meeting with all of their cars, walk around/inspect each others cars, and say "OK, Let's race". It's a bit more casual than most "inspections".

The fact is though, PGT is now a WRX dominated class, and that's the car to beat. That's also the car that the rules seem to be moulded around.

With that said, go swap in that Ver7 drivetrain, a Link, and stay in Open! }(

What ever happened to the "Spec Subie" Class for the N/A?
 

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Since this thread title concerns class dialogue, I would like to ask you all a simple question.

Why do we need classes?

This is not a smart-assed question, but one to which I have not yet heard a good answer.

My personal view is that I would like to see only two classes - AWD/4WD and 2WD. We have far too many classes now. They are confusing to the public and most are just trophy hunting classes.

I would also like to see preparation limits on these two classes which would make them both affordable.

This year in Canada, we have Pat, Tom, ACP and Sylvain essentially out of the sport and Frank driving a P2 car. We need to find a way of keeping these drivers in the sport and competing in affordable cars.

Doug Woods
 

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>I would vote for 4 classes. 2WD production and open, 4wd
>production and open. Define "production" as you'd like.
>Leave in the ability for people like Suzuki to run a car and
>not be horribly outgunned, but beyond that...

I would certainly agree with that. When I went to my first rally, I was so confused what everything meant, and wondered where PGT was since I'd only seen US rally previous. To me it makes no sense to have a WRX in a P4 class, or an EVO and Talon for that matter. Nothing against the drivers of these cars, for sure they are beaten by smaller 2wd P cars on a regular basis, but why not limit them to an AWD class, simply because of the fact that they have far more traction, and can be driven way faster with less power.
I know with my stock honda when I've toyed with friends on old forestry roads, it was such a great feeling when I would beat or keep with them simply by holding the peddle down longer.
I'm getting into rally, in gp2, because I like the 'anything goes' attitude in open. But my original intention was for Production, and the reason I didn't, was because of the WRXs and the Talons.
I think the issue is people always need to have a perfect niche that they want 'just so' instead of going to the one that best suites them. Put displacement limits on the P classes, and I think that is really all that would be needed.
Cheers

Taro
 

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> But my original intention was for
>Production, and the reason I didn't, was because of the WRXs
>and the Talons.
>Taro

As the driver of a 91' Talon Rally car- who also owns an 04' WRX street car - I can't really agree with putting these 2 cars in the same sentance. :D

Once the lease on the WRX is up though - who knows?
 
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